A Criticism of the First Degree Lessons

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Permalink Reply by Tony Jenkins on November 27, 2009 at 12:04am

I have to say that there are reasonable statements made here. In my earlier days as a fledgling in Paganism, I admit to falling into the folly of almost making as much of my spirituality about bashing Christianity as I did promoting my own. I was a teenage Pagan that thought I was someone and something special, and that Christianity was all wrong. Thankfully through the years I've matured a great deal, and it was not long after my beginnings that I began to change.

Mind you, adults are not excluded from this sort of existence either. Eyren, a friend of mine from Gaia Online tells me of a Universalist Church she wishes to join, but is somewhat saddened by its unorganized nature and how many sessions turn into Christian bashing. Odd that.

It's hard sometimes, but as I put in another post I really try to follow the "You have your gods and I have mine" idea. What more is that I try to avoid subjects of religion and politics with friends, family and strangers. There is a time and place to discuss these things, such as on this site. In addition to this fact, the gods know I can't and won't spend every day of my life worrying over them or religion in general. I don't always have to wear them on my sleeve nor promote them. Wearing my Mjollnir necklace is good enough for me, and trying to become the best I can at what I want to do. The gods are themselves, I am me. I have to worry about trying to perform deeds and actions that are worthy of becoming sagas in my own lifetime without riding on the gods' coattails.

I think this is a really interesting discussion and one worthy of note. I'm interested in seeing others' responses in this. I'll also be looking forward to your posts in the future as well. Keep up the good work.

Hail to the Hammer,
Herr Wolf

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Permalink Reply by SinbadSam on November 27, 2009 at 2:41am

There are many more lessons in the 1st Degree. Also please take the course the "Correllian Wicca - The Five Mystic Secrets".

We each are seeking to climb the same mountain, at the peak of said mountain is enlightenment. But the paths/ways to get to the top of that mountain are unlimited both in physical and spiritual ways/methods.

Do not take offense, for centuries the Religions of Abraham have taken special "pleasure" in making life hard on those who are Pagan/Wiccan/Heathen.

None of us here or that published the material are perfect. So forgive those that may have come across with Abrahamist negative point of view.

May She Give You Grace

SinbadSam

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Permalink Reply by Lilia Whisper on March 3, 2011 at 4:38pm

I love the mountain analogy, my late father would reference it from time to time.

Serena I agree mostly with what you have said and you have provoked a lot of thought, however there are only a few small point I would like to touch on:

"They do not believe the infallibility of the Bible, because they believe that the book was divinely inspired (as opposed to “written by God”) and thus filtered through humans, who are subject to a dire amount of human error and bias (and this is neglecting the fact that it has been edited many times throughout the centuries)."

Not all Christian Denominations agree on this. As I recall both Catholic Churches I attended believed that the Bible was in fact written by God, as the writers were essentially dictated to. I don't remember all the argument made to that point, but that was the epicenter of it. Still your point is an entirely valid one and many churches acknowledge your statement.

"Additionally, they understand that the Bible was written for a different type of people within a different period of history, so many laws and the like are not applicable anymore, such as those concerning slavery (i.e. they do not take the Bible literally). Rather, they see the work as purely allegorical, and understand that the message they receive is personal."

Once again, speaking in regard to the churches I attended they believed the Bible to be completely literal though regarding the very good example you gave on slavery they did tend to turn a blind eye to such laws or claim to have never have read that particular section. Sometimes they use points from other bits of the Bible such as the Romans 13:1-2 where they are instructed to obey the laws of man so long as they do not conflict with Gods higher laws. They usually did not comment on the finer points of this.

And finally, they do not believe that Hell is a place of eternal torture, and especially not of eternal damnation. They believe that Hell is a place of learning, and bypassing limitations, in order to be able to progress towards Heaven. If a murderer is trying to accept all of the things that make him who he is, and all of the things he’s done, and change, then there will be an intense amount of pain involved- this is the supposed “torture” of Hell, according to these Christian friends of mine. Furthermore, some of my Christian friends even believe in the choice to reincarnate, and have even been able to quote passages of the Bible to me that support this ideology!

While I held this belief privately I was fervently taught otherwise. Fire and brimstone as well as sharp things and ripping things were said to be common. I knew however these were images born from 'Dante's Inferno'. I asked for quotes from others, I was told to go slice bunt cake for after mass snacks in response.

All in all I agree with what you are saying and I have caught some ire from a few individuals who were less than thrilled with similar defenses I have made on behalf of the Christians who are truly good people and practice their faith in love, respect and peace. Yes we have been very oppressed for a very long time, and resentment is understandable. However we MUST take the higher road and instead of faith bashing, establish interfaith programs and live our lives the way we know we should.

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Permalink Reply by Q on November 27, 2009 at 3:04am

Very reasonable statements indeed. Your thoughts on Wicca/acceptance would seem to echo my own. I stated on another forum thread that, according to my interpretation of the Rede, Wiccans do not attack others. When attacked, a Wiccan will defend oneself, but only insofar as is necessary to prevent one's attacker from causing harm to oneself. A Wiccan will not counter-attack, or do anything intended to harm one's attacker.

This paragraph that you quote could be reworded to reflect the differences between Wicca and other religions, without casting judgement or doubt on the legitimacy of the other religions. Even if the paragraph's author didn't mean it so, I agree that a reader, new to Wicca and/or the Correllian Tradition would most likely be lead to infer from the word "supposedly" that Wiccans (not just the author) consider the other religions to be wrong, and/or inferior.

Perhaps the author will come across this, and consider rewording that portion of the lesson.

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Permalink Reply by Rev. SilentOwl on November 27, 2009 at 4:52am

I also had some stumbling with the paragraph, IF we all could change what others write or did we would end in violence and probably war. For each person in this world has a path they will find what is their own truths, and can and will express it in some way, not all are made to be negative or positives, but remember we read more into the words than what was expressed by the writer or in the mind of said writer at that moment of time. I think what he meant by book religions is that we as pagans and other beliefs outside of the four major religions (Catholic Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Satanism) express our beliefs from word of mouth. I been taking a course in comparative religion and there is a lot of speculation about each religion. I also think to be reasonable we learn what we want and let go of ideas that don't fit in our rational ideas.
I am not trying to say you are wrong or right but you have to weigh all sides on something to understand something as personal as beliefs. Also do you have a mentor as they are here to help you with things that don't click to you or you question it. Because I know that when I had a problem with some ideas I asked about it from my mentor because honestly, it helps to understand what things say...

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Permalink Reply by Serena on November 27, 2009 at 2:58pm

Herr Wolf: Thank you for the encouragement and for the confession. My early days studying Paganism were similarly characterized by a lot of internal animosity towards, well generally any faith other than the one I was beginning to develop, and Christianity in particular.

Your suggestions about where to house discussions of this sort are pertinent. I chose this blog because I felt as if there would hopefully be some people that could understand what I was trying to say, and that those that didn’t wouldn’t be so horrified as to reject me outright. How silly and hypocritical would it be for me to passionately preach this sort of thinking to unhearing ears?

SinbadSam: Thank you for your suggestions. I’ve completed The Five Mystic Secrets (and happen to have the document ready at hand, because I like it so much), and I also completed the First Degree quite a long time ago actually- this is a rather old qualm of mine.

I can easily see where you might draw your conclusions about the Religions of Abraham and torturing Pagans. But again, I’d like to re-emphasize that these actions can be attributed to particular people and sects, and not to the religions themselves. I’ve personally read and had several passages quoted to me from the Bible that would be in direct opposition to the very debaucheries some Christians have committed towards other religious practitioners.

I believe the beauty of the Bible lies in the many ways it might be interpreted, coming to each individual with a personal message. Most of these messages are undoubtedly messages of peace and acceptance, especially concerning the teachings of Christ. Other sections of the Bible however might be manipulated to support a violent mind- and any beautiful thing can be manipulated in this way. Marriage, for example, can be manipulated to mean control, or riches, or even to merit violence- to many people marriage has nothing to do with love.

And now, let’s assume that we can somehow focus only on those particular people that are guilty of some sort of violence towards Pagans, or on the sects that they belong to. I happen to think that it would be unhelpful, and even destructive, to spew hate back at them as if hate could somehow be canceled out by more hate. Where hate does cancel out hate, this is only because the other side has been so crippled and made to live in so much fear that they cannot muster the will to fight back. This sort of warfare results in the dehumanization of both sides.

Q: I’m glad that you sympathize with me. I agree with you completely. I think it’s very helpful to discuss the differences between Wicca and other religions, especially with the Seeker that is just beginning to delve into Paganism. But these differences can be discussed without overgeneralization, without listing negative aspects only, and without biased language.

Rev. RuthAnna: I enjoy your peaceful and tolerant view regarding respecting what other people write and leaving it be, as opposed to unnecessarily dissecting the words letter by letter.

I do tend to agree with you that the author, Don Lewis, likely did not intend for this paragraph to be some sort of attack, and that most of what I inferred is subject to my personal interpretation alone. However, I also feel like these words reveal a bias he himself may not have realized, that comes forth most clearly in his failure to mention a single positive thing about any four of these religions.

Additionally, these lessons are not simply a statement of personal opinion- these are instructional materials, meant to shape Wiccan understanding for any Seeker that may have no previous exposure to the faith. My personal understanding of the heart of Wicca is of a religion that is very positive and tolerant. Anyone might argue with me on this point, but I feel it is vital that instructional materials consistently support this view if not simply for the sake of accurately representing the faith, but to promote tolerance the world over.

I do have a mentor, thank you. (= And I’ve discussed matters of this sort with her many times. But I thought to spark a conversation here as well- I want to hear what other people think, and I was particularly interested in any contrasting points of view. You see, I’m very passionate about this subject, and I am always wary of keeping my mind from beginning to close where my convictions are most strong. These challenges help me to constantly reconsider my views so that I never follow them blindly.

Gargoyle: I completely understand what you mean! Thank you for revealing this part of yourself- I’m rather ashamed of how many times I’ve caught myself being judgmental when I am such a proud advocate of tolerance.

These type of open discussions, began by anyone, serve to renew my tolerance and understanding indefinitely.

When I find that my thoughts are being unfairly judgmental and biased, I always feel an immediate difference when I revert my heart towards love and tolerance. I feel as if a heavy and dark weight is lifted off of my shoulders, and I’m so much happier. It’s silly that I can so frequently forget to do this, when it makes me feel so much better about the world in which we live, isn’t it?

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Permalink Reply by SinbadSam on November 28, 2009 at 2:56am

To use the Bible to cherry pick various passages to illustrate ones interpretations and or point of view is a long established tradition in the World and has for a long time.

As for its relevance, as a whole due to the nature of the editing and translations of same, it rendered into a lessor document that it could have been.

I tend to take a Alexandrian Solution to the Gordian Knot for many issues, ie I cut straight to the heart of the issue. No messy attempts to unravel it.

I have studied and read alot of military history over the years of my life. I have enjoyed and learned alot of the works of humans thru history.

As for dehumanizing warfare, many pros and cons can be brought forth on this.

The ultimate dehumanizing weapon a nuclear bomb, has been around for over 60 years, its use in warfare has only occurred twice. To most the use of such a weapon is too horrific, but the presence of such weapons has had a major effect on world history. Some for the good some for the bad. But the horror of such a weapon has kept it from being used.

If warfare became so horrific would it happen that much?

I am and have always been a Wiccan Warrior. I am also a baresark of non adrenalin related origins. It took me any years of learning to integrate my baresark with the rest of my life. Call it Yin and Yang, they each need each other to make the complete me.

It had a serious impact on my martial arts training, most instructors/teachers are very reluctant to instruct someone like me. But I did find such a teacher.

I have learned that there are many people in the world that nice words/actions only incite them to greater deeds of bad behavior and or conduct. One notable example is Adolph Hitler, the British PM tried nice works/words etc, and in the end failed badly for the rest of the world.

So one must be prepared for those types of persons. To deal with them like the cutting thru the Gordian Knot. Does this mean violence versus violence. Again I am a Wiccan Warrior you try to harm me or mine, I am prepared for meetings.

I do not look at the world thru Rose Colored Glasses but the broken, and fractured ones of long years of experiences.

To some here how I view things is horrifying/unpleasant to them. But again many things are also.

I think way outside the box that most people even think about. It helped me many times while I was in the US Navy. But then it also garnered me a respect of sorts while there. I was never politically correct in the USN.

Me personally I do not let the words of the author/authors expressing or not expressing a bias in the lessons, get me much worked up. But that is my point of view and choice.

You are still young, I truly hope your dream/point of view of the world comes true. But be prepared in case it does not.

Hate, and anger are valid emotions/feelings, how we deal with or use such emotions is what gets us into trouble.

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Permalink Reply by Serena on November 28, 2009 at 12:54pm

SinbadSam: I won’t pretend I know enough about humanity to discuss the necessity of warfare. You’re right, I am very young, and world history is far from my specialty. However, whatever the necessity or lack thereof, I feel as if war should never be encouraged. Especially in the context of religious tolerance.

I borrowed the word “dehumanization” from my Gr. Grandfather who’s a WWII veteran. Victor or no, benefits of war or no, I still believe all participants in war are robbed of some semblance of their humanity.

I don’t know what a baresark is. Is this related to berserk?

You bring up the issue of duality: Everyone has these “darker” and “lighter” sides to themselves, to greater and lesser extents. No wise person would try to suppress one in favor of the other. Sadly, many people have tried to, especially in regards to the darker and less “acceptable” side of themselves. It’s very commendable that you have acknowledged this side of yourself, let alone braved the painful and hard work involved in order to incorporate this side into your entire being.

I understand why you bring up the issue of “rose-colored glasses”. I wouldn’t dream of pretending that compliments and gift-baskets are the solution to every problem in the world. Again, whether or not violence is ever a solution is something that I don’t feel as if I’m currently in the place to discuss.

No matter, violence and warfare are aside from the original topic I brought up to discuss.
My question is, and I would particularly like for you to answer this: Is it right, especially for someone that professes to follow Wiccan thought, to over-generalize a particular religion and/or its practitioners?

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Permalink Reply by Serena on November 28, 2009 at 1:26pm

Robin Winterberg:I am uncertain as to how this became a discussion about pacifism versus standing tall and strong for the beliefs you know in your heart to be true.

If anything, standing strong for what I believe is precisely what I was doing in beginning this conversation from the start. I understand where SinbadSam is coming from when he says he doesn't let such statements in books get him heated up, but I feel differently- I thought saying something about it, directly on the sight that promotes and follows these very same lessons none-the-less, was the right thing to do.

I did not mean to come off as if I would suggest your son be nice to his hypocritical peers, as if this would make them disappear in a puff a black smoke. Unfortunately, being friendly to these people would very like be an ineffective and even dangerous thing for him to do.

My point is this: I have seen so-called Wiccans be cold, uninclusive, and even cruel to generalized groups of the population, particularly to Christians. I've also seen serial-murderers profess to being practitioners of Witchcraft. We know that whatever they are calling Witchcraft is something very far from the practice that Wiccans know. I am saddened by how outsiders see these figures and understand that their points of view must be like every other member of the Wiccan community. And so, I seek to break this ill-informed cycle and make sure that I do not do the same to practitioners of other religions.

Practicing these Book Religions does not require the denouncing every other faith as devil worship- not in every church, not in every sect. Those sad children do not represent the entirety of Christianity. Again, I know a decent amount of Christians that embody something very far from such close-mindedness.

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Permalink Reply by Rev. SilentOwl on November 28, 2009 at 8:57pm

Bravo Becca,

You said it like I was thinking when I read the last few posts. What are we to judge others in our world? We all in this together and life sprouts and blooms with each persons ideals of beauty and our souls.

Tauri St.Claire,

We live in a age that doesn't take in account for all that has been done not only to our world but our animals and plants and even humans. When you gloss over the basic wording of a subject, we will have some troubles, but its better than saying things that can be horrible and even cruel. History is what it is, its our History and we should learn from past mistakes but we are human and have our faults. Its wonderful to express our beliefs as we do in Wicca, and we have the freedom to be allowed it so gloriously. I have seen how religion is crushing a lot of people from Africa to Asia and even in Russia, its not pretty! But I am thankful because I know if I wasn't born, I would not be here today to say, the Correllians are a blessing to me and a shelter to my soul. I know what abuse is, I know what hate is, I know what cruelty is, I have lived a life that MOST wouldn't want in a thousand life times, but with it I have learned that WE are truly one race with a wondrous life ahead of us, just a lot of bumps in the road to remind us who we are.
Many Blessings to all
Rev. RuthAnna Christiansen-Jorgensen Jessup

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Permalink Reply by Serena on November 29, 2009 at 2:17am

Rev. RuthAnna,

Thank you for you letter to me. You strike me as a very open-hearted person.

You said that the Correllians were a blessing to you, and I can't help but wonder if you emphasized this because you feel as if you have to defend them from what I'm trying to say? I hope I didn't come off as intending to attack the Correllian tradition or Rev. Don Lewis in some way.

My intention was not to nit-pick, even though I knew I was doing it as soon as I began to write the criticism. But I most definitely did not intend for this to be an attack.

My opening was originally a letter, directed towards Rev. Don Lewis himself because it was an issue I hoped to resolve privately. I was hoping that we could reach some sort of understanding, and I have a feeling that he would explain to me something very similar to what Rev. Becca said about him. He did not reply however, likely because he is a very busy man, or it's even possible that the e-mail address I found (and had sent to me by one or two people are asked) is old now.

I did not mean to point a crooked finger at Rev. Don and call him a hypocrite, hateful towards Christians, or anything of the sort.
I acknowledged, in my letter, that the Pagan community is nursing a lot of scars delivered by so-called Christians throughout history and sadly too often in this modern time.
I only pointed out the faults of that one particular paragraph, which is the only discussion in the lessons of these religions, under an open topic in the hopes that people would see it and think about what role we can play in breaking this cycle.

I'm very tired. If hope you don't find this letter and it is only gibberish (=,
Tauri St.Claire

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Permalink Reply by Rev.Theresa Helton (Moonraven) on November 29, 2009 at 12:26pm

These are all the words that came through my heart and mind, Becca. You have stated them beautifully.
Blessed Be.

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