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I am at odds with the presence of this paragraph within the introduction of Correllian Wicca: First Degree:

“Wicca is wholly unrelated to the Book religions; Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Satanism. The Book religions are all descended from the supposedly historical bargain between Abraham and Jehovah, which is recorded in their Bible. The Book religions all share common elements; belief in a final Day of Judgment, in a jealous and vengeful God, in the basic sinfulness of humanity (called Original Sin), the superiority of the male sex, and the idea of Hell; a place of eternal torture. Most of all the Book religions believe in the infallibility of their Book, the Bible (and its related books the Talmud, the Q’uran, the Satanic Bible). Though these books were written by humans, the Book religions claim they were written by God - this is the hallmark of the Book religions. Absolutely NONE of these ideas are shared by Wicca. The Book religions have a totally separate origin from the Pagan religions, and a very different history.”

This paragraph makes me unhappy, particularly because some of this is false information. For example, those who practice Judaism reject the concept of Original Sin out right. I will elaborate later on the other points made in this paragraph that I know are wrong, even if simply out of overgeneralization, but I would first like to discuss the most pressing fault I find in this paragraph: To my understanding, it is not Wiccan to discuss these faiths in such a way.

This paragraph resonates negativity from the first description of these other (fully legitimate and beautiful) religions. The presence of “supposedly” in the sentence regarding the history of the Book Religions automatically denounces any potential legitimacy in a way that assumes superior knowledge of history- as if anyone could claim to have this.

What bothers me most is that this paragraph is in direct opposition to another lesson discussed mere paragraphs before this one:

“Wicca believes that Deity comes to each person in the way that is best understood by that person, and that this is different for different people. Wicca believes that the relationship between a person and Deity is highly individual, personal, and subjective. Not everyone will have the same understanding of Deity, because not everyone is in the same place, or able to understand from the same level or perspective. Because of this no one has a right to judge another persons relationship with Deity, because each person is different.

This is why we respect all the names and forms that have been used to honor Deity through the centuries -Deity needs them all in order to come to all people in the way they can best understand.”

Then why concentrate only on the possible negative facets of these faiths? (And one paragraph denounces four religions in one swoop!) Why make them out to appear hateful and cruel when they are nothing but systems of guidance, that share many of the same doctrines as Wicca does such as of kindness, generosity, reverence for life, etc. I talk about these things as aside from Satanism, because I do not know enough about the religion to discuss it.

But in regards to the other religions mentioned, I only care to point out this Wiccan Contradiction because it has bothered me for quite some time. I understand the years of bias and hatred that have come from practitioners of these religions- I understand that there are cultural affiliations (such as the belief in the superiority of the male sex, which I believe is cultural as opposed to sincerely engraved in the doctrine) that conflict directly with Wiccan understanding and acceptance. However, I stress that these things have come from followers of these religions (or so they call themselves, unrightfully), and it is not fair to denounce the faiths themselves for these individual actions. There are people that call themselves Wiccan who would do similar harm to others. Because religion is subject to interpretation, and all humans are unique, this is simply something that cannot be helped (and should not be, because this conflict in opinion is a byproduct of beautiful diversity that simply cannot and should not be compromised).

It simply isn’t necessary to inject the word “supposedly” and make it seem as if the history and the scripture is made up.

Because I know more about Christianity than the other religions, and because I think it likely that this contradiction has more to do with Christianity than the other Judaism and Islam, I will concentrate on that.

I know of followers of Christ who believe any number of things in contradiction to the paragraph above, and in their conviction still remain entirely in line with Christian doctrine.

They do not believe the infallibility of the Bible, because they believe that the book was divinely inspired (as opposed to “written by God”) and thus filtered through humans, who are subject to a dire amount of human error and bias (and this is neglecting the fact that it has been edited many times throughout the centuries).

Additionally, they understand that the Bible was written for a different type of people within a different period of history, so many laws and the like are not applicable anymore, such as those concerning slavery (i.e. they do not take the Bible literally). Rather, they see the work as purely allegorical, and understand that the message they receive is personal.

These friends do not believe in Original Sin. While this is common in Christian doctrine, it is not required of its practitioners, and there many different sects of Christianity that reject it outright. Mormons do not accept the concept of Original Sin, nor do most Churches spurring from the Restoration Movement which are some of the most common today. And, as I said, the Hebrews do not believe in Original Sin at all. I am uncertain as to what the Muslims teach, however.

Of course, my friends do not believe that women are inferior to men- no matter the story of Adam and Ever- otherwise we simply would not get along. They believe that men and women are undoubtedly equal in the eyes of God.

And finally, they do not believe that Hell is a place of eternal torture, and especially not of eternal damnation. They believe that Hell is a place of learning, and bypassing limitations, in order to be able to progress towards Heaven. If a murderer is trying to accept all of the things that make him who he is, and all of the things he’s done, and change, then there will be an intense amount of pain involved- this is the supposed “torture” of Hell, according to these Christian friends of mine. Furthermore, some of my Christian friends even believe in the choice to reincarnate, and have even been able to quote passages of the Bible to me that support this ideology!

My point is, it upsets me to see Wiccans so hateful of the Book religions (and Christianity especially) while begging for acceptance for themselves… I love Wicca, and the Correllian Tradition in particular. However, I heavily disagree with the presence of such a negative paragraph, especially within the introduction of the first degree lessons. This is one of the first things a seeker will see, and I believe it is misleading so far as Wicca teaches being acceptin and well informed and worldly.

I hope that I have not come off as being overly zealous. I thoroughly enjoyed everything else written in the following pages, and I intend on working through the rest of the Degree system. But this bias towards Christianity as a whole is something that I want to actively work against, and I feel it is in direct opposition for any goals of peace Wiccans might have (especially where their own faith is concerned).

Please consider what I’ve said and understand that I come from a willingness to love and open my heart to all faiths and creeds.

Thank you and Blessed Be,
Tauri St.Claire

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Wonderful reply, Valgandr. I also am blessed by your words.

I wish to say that only a few of the New Testament works attributed to Paul were actually written by him, and Bible scholars have known this for centuries. They don't share that info with the laity because they consider faith to be a fragile thing I suppose. It was a common practice of the Greek educational system/division known as the gymnasium to teach scribes to write in the style and name of an earlier, well-known author. Paul was definitely a favorite of 2nd century students. He was incredibly zealous for Judaism when he was known as "Saul", and his zeal continued for the new sect, (but felt that he had a better understanding of the message than the disciples.) So much that he carried the message to everyone he could outside of the Judaic tradition. (Typical of people with obsessive/compusive disorder). He used speech that Pagan people could understand, and added metaphors which pointed back at passages in the Jewish writings. This was because he was trying to win what was known a "God-Fearers", people who were Gentile, yet were attending the outer court of the synagogues and were therefore well-versed in Jewish tradition. He was often at odds with the Christian Jews, and one tradition has Paul doing physical harm to James when it got out of hand. So Paul's Christianity was one step removed from the actual teachings of Yeshua, but nonetheless held his core teachings of love, equality, and empowerment.

Also, you are so correct about Yeshua becoming "Yeshua Bar Abbas" at his baptism and Jesus of Nazareth ceases to exist. In the original manuscripts the Procurator, Pilate, asks who the crowd would have released to them: Yeshua Is(h)Nazareth, or Yeshua Bar Abbas. Why must this be read so litterally? When we do that we miss the true meaning of this story. A man was executed that day, and a God-Man, the son of the Father was permited to continue. This is an amazing allegory! One that Christians, most of them, miss altogether because they wish to believe it literrally!

Now we come to Neo-Paganism. Since I turned to this path I have had more than one brush with ceremonial magicians, BTW Wiccans, and flat-out zealous traditionalists who insist that their take on things makes them the only "true" followers of Wicca. They place the form and fashion of rituals and initiations above the higher concept of Spirit. They insist that their particular Book of Shadows, or Grimoire is the only valid guide and have become no better than fundamentalist Christians. Without honest criticism, Correllian Wicca could become the same thing, and I applaude Serena for her stance on this matter.

In ancient Pagan beliefs nobody believed that a litteral giant named "Atlas" was supporting the weight of the Earth. They personified a force which they, as of yet, had not come to understand. Many of the myths disagreed with each other about many things, yet, because people understood that the metaphor was more important than the litteral aspect of these stories, it was not necesarry to argue about which Goddess was the wife of which God, or whether or not Hermes had a beard. As a result of this system of understanding the greatest scholars of the ancient world were able to thrive, study, and help to advance civilization in a way which has not been possible since. Pythagoras acurately estimated the size of the globe using a mathematical calculation based on the length of shadows cast by monuments at different locations at the same time of day. (Just think of how it would have benefited Christopher Columbus if he had not ignored the work of this man, simply because he was Pagan). Ah, sorry, I am digressing.

I wonder, my friend, if someday when we are long gone . . . if someone will read these posts . . . and others . . . and actually find that this conversation and others like it . . .

were of importance.
Greatest Blessings
Larry
Greeting Larry,

It is indeed, as always, a pleaasure to read the wisdom you share. Yes, many scholars not tighted to the purse strings of the Vatican know of the books attributed to Paul yet in some cases fabricated long after his passing such as Colossians. Written to suggest that Paul was anything but a Gnostic. As you well know the Mystery and Gnostic practices taught by Yeshua were heresies by the 3rd Century. The Holy Roman church used their native born son at least in name to slant things agsinst the pro-Gnostics followers. And in their later zeal perhaps went after Gnostic descendants of the the first followers of the Christed One with swords.

As to the Roman Paul said to have been named "Saul" at birth, whether Rome has carefully aided in scripting his past or it was zealously embellished over the centuries - what I am given to understand is the Paul's parents were a bit more interesting then the books and Rome would share with us. Born in a coastal town, his father was a Gentile Roman merchant who years before Paul came into the world had contracted a Jewish women to be his house keeper. In time he chose to marry her, with Saul being the result. However, contrary to his Jewish heritage his father insisted that his son be raised gentile and so he was - his name of Paul was adhered to or taken on in this formative period. In time his father was successful and gained favor taking on a administrative task in the town. Paul's conversion to The Way perhaps was a vision or there are some that have picked up that perhaps he was a Roman infiltrator sent in to possibly initially was to spy on them or as some have suggested he was to try divide and conquer techniques to weaken the group. All I know for certain was his presence was deemed by most as disruptive. So he was ordered/suggested to return to Antioch and the Eastern regions. I can also tell you contrary to Romes version, when Jerusalem requested he be brought to the Great Temple to answer charges of his teaching Jews not to observe important Jewish rites and practices it was not Ya'qav that made the request. Nor was Ya'qav reponsible for Pauls arrest. According to my sources after addressing Paul's indesgression Paul was ordered to prove his adherence to Jewish law and rites, he was asked to lead a Passover Seder one of the many being held in the Great Temple at tha Passover and he failed miserably - out of which he was arrested. Of course he fell back on deplaying punishment by claiming his Roman citizenship apparently both to get shipped to Rome and to avoid execution on a floundering ship. Whatever the true story is for him some of his practices seem in-line with the early followers of the Way.

Be well - many blessings to you!
Valgandr
I do remember one verse in Galatians saying "Go and be slaves no more" I think this was Paul?

Sometimes, more "Liberty based" Christians refer to Galatians.

I will admit that every once in a While I feel a happy remembering of Christian energy, But those days faded as I began to ask more and more Questions and of course mentioned the things I felt and saw in the other Place.

I still love watching ritual though whether it be Pagan or Christian or Whatever.
That face looks just like Apollonius of Tyana.
I understand your point Obere, I am confused at why you are so Quick to refer to Correllianism as a "New age fiction"
When you yourself have admitted an eclectic path of sorts though with a parental foundation.

I am Correllian (Outer Circle) I think they have a great history.
Correllians use Inner visual magic as much of our practice ,every tradition I have spoken to agrees that this is the true magic.(yes including Gardnerians and Alexandrians that I know)

So to me Correllians are engaged in Inner Magical Practice or as some say "Building the Inner Temple" real magic to me is building the inner temple and of course relationship with deity.
All of the ceremonies of any Form of magical practice come down to energy Manipulation, I see no reason to assume that Correllian ceremony or magical structure is any more or less effective.

But I am not trying to start a "Label Debate" here and I am not mad at you or offended I am just stating my personal view.
Religions are eclectic/evolving in their own nature it just simply is, it is only natural ,I don't make this rule history simply expresses it.
To me it is wise to see this in all traditions as long as it does not cause the tradition to loose its genuine purpose or core.

Blessed Be
Hunter you are right about the effort , I took Kung-fu as a kid and the Martial art world is full of stylistic debates but the truth is that if the fighting style was faithfully practiced and seriously studied than that person will be a better fighter regardless of what martial art he/she takes .

The phrase Kung-Fu means "Time and effort", so you can watch a well disciplined Golfer and say "hmmm Kung Fu, this Golfer has obviously practiced a great deal at his swing."

Time and Effort.
Peace and Blessings
I am sorry you found it lacking Obere, You seem to be a very passionate traditionalist I am at peace with that,

You seem to be blessed with personal/"In-person" teachers that is nice.

I think that the modern world is a blessing to the Craft as far as information sharing and such but other aspects of modern life are not so much.

I need to spend more time in nature.
I want to take a long weekend and just hike through the woods and find a branch for a new wand and make one, make a handle for an athame and Create a crystal access point.

We get so busy in our modern lives I think to myself " Were can I find this weekend"???!!
I will have to make it ,find the time.

Anyway I have drifted off topic but perhaps mention a point we can both relate to in some way.

Blessed Be
"As to correllianism, its another that yeah im sure its valid for all those who practice and believe it and fallow, to me its just another new age pathway"

There's a lot of difference between a "pathway" and a "fiction".

BB
Larry
good point made Sparrow, Allthough I think that Obere got way off topic here, and proved to be closed to any belief but his own. The point to be made boils down to Political Correctness, if we allow that to consume us it puts a veil over our learning process. Energy needs to be focused on the spiritual Journey. Not wasted on things that will close the door to spiritual growth.
Blessed Be
I think things have been taken too litteraly. the pagagraph was meant to show some examples of some BOOK RELIGEONS. And some examples of punnishments and beliefs. The point to be made was that wicca is not like any book religeon . I think POLITICAL CORRECTNESS has made us all afraid of what we say. I wonder if your Christian friends would have done the same for you? If we focus on the politicaly correct way to word a paragraph it takes away our focus to learn about our religion. It focuses our energy on something other than our spiritual quest. don't focus on the litteral, you'll miss the lesson to be learned.
Blessed Be
"I hope that I have not come off as being overly zealous. I thoroughly enjoyed everything else written in the following pages, and I intend on working through the rest of the Degree system. But this bias towards Christianity as a whole is something that I want to actively work against, and I feel it is in direct opposition for any goals of peace Wiccans might have (especially where their own faith is concerned)."

This statement is the flame which tempers the entire post. It seems to me to be made in perfect love, and in sharing her feelings with us (knowing that she may be judged for it), perfect trust. I truly feel that she has the right to criticize this statement referred to in the 1st degree lessons, or else this trad would indeed be the same as the book religions. If more Jews, or Christians, or Muslims practiced this type of scriptural literacy there would be much less suffering in this world.

Larry
In reading the posts in this discussion, I have come to realize that those of us who follow the Wiccan/Pagan path to spitituality are far more tollerent of other belief structurs. The amount of research to understand the practices and views of other religeons is truly inspireing. I am thankfull that this forum is avaliable to us. I am proud to be a part of it. I dont think that a simmilar discussion on a christian site would ever exist however, and that saddens me. Without this forum we would be in the same place we were for so many years.....In the shaddows..... Feared and shuned by the majority. because of ignorance. We try to understand other points of view and don't pass judjment for these views.

I have allso come to understanding that the difference between the books of different religeons and our book of shaddows is this....to have a relationship with thier gods you must read and follow the scripture and follow to the letter, the words written within, you must only accept your scripture as the truth. no other path is acceptable. The book of shaddows is a more personal documentation of our relationship with Diety and the knowledge we gain allong our journey. It is the connection with nature and the knowing that we are all majickal. that we thru our ritual and spells can perform miracles. the power is in us and not with some one/thing else.

The first degree lesson book is not a bible it is not scripture. It is a learning tool that we as Wiccans have developed to help along our path of understanding. how you process and use the information is purly a personal choice.I dont think The words were not meant to bash or deminish other spiritual paths, but meant to be used as an example:)

I think I have allso learned the power of the written word. that we must choose our words wisely as my grama use to say

Blessed Be
Temperance

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