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Permalink Reply by Phoenix Rising on Hi, Emygin Mysteria! It can be hard to be at odds with your friend as you describe. I would suggest you ask where she learned form in the first place, and watch the YouTube Videos of Lesson 2 by Rev Don Lewis with her to show her what you mean by your worship and prayers.
If she learned strictly Spellcraft, I would agree that she's not the SAME TYPE of Wiccan that you are, but she can still call herself Wiccan if she honors a Deity within her practice of spellcraft, or even if she just wants to, as there is no particular standard of beliefs to be met to do so. That's why so many Solitary Practitioners like yourself call themselves 'Solitaries' or 'Eclectic Wiccans', indicating they don't belong to a coven or a particular Tradition within Wicca. I know several Witches who practice primarily Spellcraft, and use the Elements and their associated attributes, etc in their practice. Most of them acknowledge a Dark Goddess, but not publicly, as secrecy is an integral part of their personal practice.
However you look at it, she and you can both be Wiccan and still differ widely in your practices, just as Catholics and Mormons are both classed as Christian, but differ widely in their practices and beliefs. The dividing line between Wiccan and Witch is argued on a daily basis by people who have been in the Pagan Community far longer than both of us - LOL! Some Wiccans don't practice the Craft at all - but they worship the Goddesses and Gods. Others are like your friend, who doesn't know any Theology, but practices the Craft. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' - but she needs to understand that when you worship, you're not 'hexing' anyone - LOL! Good luck!!
Brightest Blessings~~Phoenix
Permalink Reply by Emygin Mysteria on Permalink Reply by Phoenix Rising on You're most welcome, Emygin~~ It's up to us all to pass on what we know and to keep learning more all of our lives. Not intending anything negative by this comment, but you're very young, and need to not think in absolutes, like judging whether or not your friend should call herself Wiccan. Just please keep in mind that we can't know what someone else is thinking just by what they say or do - sometimes we need to ask questions. I think you're on the right track, discussing differences as well as similarities with friends who all learned from books or only one other person. If you listen to your heart, you'll always know what is right for you! Just go back to the Rede and to the Charge of the Goddess and the Charge of the God when you have questions. They all allow for the maximum in differences, rather than requiring strict 'sameness' of people. 'Vive' la diferance!' Celebrate difference!! Have a Bright and Blessed Year!!
Permalink Reply by Drakill Tannan on I respecfully disagree, Phoenix. While i'm not wiccan, if i were i would certianly fight to mantain the clearness of my religion. Some people belive wicca is not a religion, some belive wicca = witchcraft, some belive it is a form of feminism or a derivant of the hippy movement. This is wrong, and i belive any practicing wiccan should oppose this misconceptions in order to keep the "purity" of what the word "Wicca" means.
Permalink Reply by Phoenix Rising on That would be fine, Drakill, if there WERE a clear definition of Wicca. At this point, however, there is no such agreement on terms or theology or even a clear definition of 'Witch' versus 'witch' - The most that can be said at this point is that the individual Traditions all have clear standards for claiming membership in a particular Tradition. A Solitary Wiccan, by definition, has no such standards by which to be included or excluded from being defined as 'Wiccan'. This is an evolving religion, and one of it's strengths is, I believe, the hazy quality of the general term, Wiccan. It is a drawback, as well, but the individual Trads pick up the slack on that end, IMO.
Permalink Reply by Drakill Tannan on I agree, but is that something we want?
As of now i could call myself a wiccan, even though i share nothing of the theology most wiccans use and know nothing of gardener's original wicca. I could say i'm a wicccan because i do witchcraft-like rituals, while beliving the true identities of the god and godess are Ixchel and Odin, while also beliving in a literal hell and thinking jesus was the incarnation of my personal god, and people would accept it.
How is that any good, phoenix? I don't mind religions evolving: nothing can ever remain the same, but there is a diference between evolving because we have a jump on our knowledge, because we have seen it's flaws, or because we've adopted another filosofical view, but many of today's "Wiccans" are just making up stuff as they go. That is not ok.
Permalink Reply by Phoenix Rising on Have you studied the history of very early Christianity? Wicca is in the same stage that pre-Constantine Christianity was in, but we have avoided the absolutism and internal infighting specifically by ALLOWING anyone who wishes to call themselves 'Wiccan' to do so.
The current state of affairs has been exacerbated by the media hoopla around such movies as 'Charmed' and the 'Instant Wicca' books, which often contain very muddled theology, if any. The only real 'cure' I see for the whole situation is time - Wicca will cease to be a 'fad' religion, and many of the wanna-bes will go on to the next fad. Remember when everybody was 'trying out' the Eastern religions, meditation, and etc.? Serious students of Wicca will continue to search out learning and wisdom, and the situation will stabilize and define itself over time.
Wicca is not a 'popular' nor an 'organized' religion - it is in the category of Mystery religions, due to its' quality of personal gnosis, or unverifiable personal visions/talks with one's personal Deities. For this reason alone, there will NEVER be any absolute definition of who is or is not Wiccan - just who is or is not adherents of a particular Tradition. This will be so until we can all read one anothers' minds, I'm sure.
That is why the Traditions are so important within the umbrella term of 'Wicca'. The Trads DO have specific theologies and practices which have to be adhered to to be a member of that Tradition. Just as anyone can call themselves Wiccan, anyone can call themselves Christian, and do. But a Catholic church will not allow a person to take Communion, for instance, unless they are also Catholic - thus adhering to the doctrinal theology and practices specified for Catholics. Unless said Wiccan is Gardnerian, they will not be allowed to participate in a Gardnerian Coven closed ritual. The TYPE of Wiccan affiliation is important for group rituals, just as the TYPE of Christianity is important for Church Sacraments.
I think many people fail to understand that 'Wiccan' is only PART of the term for one's religion. Those who are more aware of theology usually add a qualifier, such as Corellian, Gardnerian, Feri, and etc. Solitaries generally are coming to call themselves 'Eclectic' Wiccans, or simply 'Solitary' Wiccans. And I notice the practice is becoming more prevalent of asking someone who introduces themselves as 'Wiccan', what Tradition they are, or studied in. That is also part of why I believe that Time will sort out many of the issues you raise. After all - Wicca is full of rampant individualists, and we do not ow, and most likely never will have a 'Pope' to set 'acceptable' doctrine and dogma. the day THAT would happen is when I would no longer call myself Wiccan!
Permalink Reply by Drakill Tannan on I hadn't considered that "Fade from the spotlight" thing before.. it actually puts me at ease.
Permalink Reply by Phoenix Rising on Glad to hear you're more at ease - many people haven't studied theology and the historicity of religions, and they tend to miss the fact that we, as Wiccans, are a VERY young religion! Even under the umbrella of 'Pagan' or 'Neo-Pagan', Wicca is still very young, and is a syncretic religion. We freely borrow 'whatever works' from other religions at this point, and merge it into our Path. This has always happened in the evolution of religions, but the difference is that this time, we are aware of it, and freely acknowledge we are doing so.
I've seen a number of people bring up the same concerns you expressed, Drakill - and most of them hadn't thought about the mechanics of actual definitions and enforcement methods at this time, either. (LOL!) THEY would be the FIRST ones to start squalling if ANYONE tried to 'regularize' or otherwise tread upon their own personal freedom of expression regarding Wicca - LOL!!!
I think myself that the 'chain' runs thus : Pagan> Wiccan> (Tradition)> Individual interpretation of Deity> individual practice of worship.
There's no reason in the world you can't call yourself Wiccan if you want to, BTW - just don't claim a Tradition you haven't studied and been initiated in - LOL!
Gardner set no requirements in stone for being Wiccan - just for being Gardnerian~~
Have a Bright and Blessed New Year!!
Permalink Reply by Drakill Tannan on I do see something wrong with this. You can't call yourself wiccan just because you do witchcraft. Maybe she doens't know the diference between the two.. a common thing nowdays, sadly. Why not explain it to her?
A wiccan is a follower of the religion created by Gerald Gardener or any derivant of it. It involves knowing and beliving in the theology presented in whatever branch a person follows, and participating or performing the religious rituals required in said religion if the person is to be called a practicing wiccan. It may or may not involve witchcraft.
A witch is a practicioner of witchcraft, a form of sorcey and thus a mystic practice of manipulating energies in acordinance to the wiill of the practicioner. It is not attacked to a specific set of belives save the fact that such energies exist and can be manipulated, and does not determine any status towards any religion, but religions may have a stance towards witchcraft.
Maybe she is a witch.
Maybe she is a non-pracitcing wiccan.
Maybe she is an actual practicing wiccan.
Or maybe she's read books by idiot people and has no idea of the diference.
Either way, explaining it to get this way may solve the whole issue. Do remember to aproach respectfully though, a friendship is too valuable to be lost to something as relatively insignificant as religion.
Permalink Reply by Phoenix Rising on I do like your definition of the difference between a 'Witch' and a 'witch', Drakill. Personally, I don't care for the term 'witch', and avoid it whenever possible. I feel, among other things, that it is far too imprecise a term to label all Wiccans as 'Witches' - as some do NOT do spellwork, as you so aptly point out. I know a couple of practitioners of the Craft who do not worship, but do spellwork and healing exclusively, and they strongly resent the term 'Wiccan' being applied to them. They proudly claim the titles of Healer and Spellcrafter, respectively, and neither wants to be called a 'witch'~~
Permalink Reply by Rachael Sue Rubin on i thnk i will just start saying i am a child of the universe,lol ---eternal and free all of creations pulses in me.....
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