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Poking the Bear with a stick...

Pamela asked herself what should we discuss next... well, allow me to stir up the cauldron a little bit... hopefully some thoughts will bubble up... :


Question: Why is it that every time there is the slightest waft of possibility that more than a handful of Pagans will agree on something, somebody will invariably stand up and scream:


“DOGMA!, BLOODY DOGMA! DOOM IS UPON US, HERE COMES THE DOGMA!


so.... what is this "dogma" thing?


The dictionary tells us that it means: “a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle.”


Gilbert Keith Chesterton once said “We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.”



Warning: here starts the poking of the bear!!!!


  1. Of course, every one of us claims to follow his own path... that is if that person is a Solitary Eclectic. Because otherwise... drum roll and a loud trumpet ta-da-da.... you DO follow a Dogma!


  1. Every time you agree to be a part of a group that has rules, every time you learn from your  teacher and practice what he/she thought you, you are following some sort a dogma... so...  why do we delude ourselves that we are independent spirits?


  1. Look around this site. It is the representation of a beautiful tradition. It has a well defined  hierarchy, it has rules, it has clergy,  it teaches in a certain way. So... would you call it dogmatic?


  1. Do you cast a circle? Why? Because somebody thought you to do it, through word of mouth,  or through a book. So.... you are a follower of rules, even if you dress it up with whistles and  bells.


  1. Did somebody ever initiated you in something? Well, if he/she did, he/she did it according to a dogma.


Why do we automatically think that rules are a bad thing? I put it to you that in some cases, rules are there to preserve peace, give clarity, and ensure mutual respect.


I further put it to you, that Pagan Dogma is fundamentally different to ALL others? Hm.... I can see you uncomfortably shifting around in your chair and wondering why...


Because it isn't set in stone!!!!. The one thing that is important about every single flavor of tradition under the Pagan umbrella, is that it is fluid, it adapts to the needs of those who choose it. It evolves. We don't have things set in stone for centuries, we adapt to the times. But that does not mean that  we shouldn't have rules. Like it or not, there are points of commonality between most Pagan flavors.


Commonality = a platform, a foundation.


We would do well to remind ourselves that Paganism isn't the same as other religions. It has its own quirks. It's time to get over the old hangups... this isn't the other religion. If the other religion hurt you  and made you hypersensitive to rules, get over it, because if you don't, it still keeps you prisoner.  Pagan beliefs are a whole new ball game, with rules that adapt to what we need at the time.


We would do also well to remember that if we fear “dogma” so much as to block (in the name of  infinite all inclusive diversity) the development of a coherent community, we are doomed to fail.


If we refuse to stand for something , we stand for nothing.



p.s. (and this is the cherry on this particular cake): Isn't the fear of dogma dogmatic in itself?


... stepping aside...

... putting on the football helmet for protection....

... opening the gates, and hoping that there wont be a bunch of angry villagers with torches and pitchforks on the other side...

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by MaryAnn on August 31, 2010 at 11:39am
This is a great topic. I am bumping it back to top.
Permalink Reply by Magickal Hummingbyrd on September 1, 2010 at 12:08am
♥)O(♥ Bright Blessings Everyone! ♥)O(♥



MaryAnn... Thank You For "Bumping" This Discussion Back Up To The Top!



According To My Inner Perception... "Rules & Dogma" Are Not The Same Thing!



Rules Are The Agreed Upon *Ethics* Within A Coven ~ Tradition ~ Group. ~~~ This Is Good.


Dogma, On The Otherhand, Is Forcing Upon Everyone In The Coven ~ Tradition ~ Group To Entirely
Limit Themselves To The Views, Practices, Magickal And Spiritual Beliefs & The Ridgid Dictates Of The "Authoritative One" Who Heads The Coven ~ Tradition ~ Group Etc. ~~~ Dogma Leaves NO Room For One's Personal Direct Mystical Magickal Spiritual Experiences & Awareness To Be Voiced. ~~~ Dogma Is All About Manipulation & Control & Conformity. It Is Ridgidly Inflexible. In The Hands Of The Ego~Driven, Dogma Is Psychopathic & Is Violence To The Spiritual ~ Emotional ~ Mental ~ Physical ~ Well~Being Of ALL Unfortunate Ones Captured In Its Ravenous Cruel Clutches. It Is Self~Harm To Allow Oneself To Be Thus Caught Within The Ridgid "Dogma" Of Control~Freaks! ~~~ No Spiritual Progress Nor Is Enlightenment Possible Therein. ~~~ YOUR SPIRIT WEEPS! AND, SO DOES THE GODDESS WEEP FOR YOU! ~~~ The GODDESS & Your Highest Spiritual SELF Should Be Your Primary Main Guides!



♥Bountiful Blessed Bees!♥


♥)O(♥ ~~~ Magickal Hummingbyrd ~~~ ♥)O(♥ </:-)
Permalink Reply by Tony Jenkins on August 31, 2010 at 1:06pm
Thanks for bumping this one MaryAnn. It most certainly is a good topic. I think the word "dogma", like other words, has taken on new meanings in modern use. Like the word stupid can be a serious insult in Spanish, in English we've reduced it to a commonly used term. Bearing this in mind, when we hear or read the word dogma, we set ourselves up to be on guard and possibly quite defensive. Linguistic programming perhaps? Either way, we can only do well to break ourselves up from the idea that dogma is bad all together. A great topic indeed. I for one am glad that like minds came together and agreed upon the Nine Noble Virtues as finding them to be evident, although not distinctly stated throughout the Eddas. Good show there indeed! Looking forward to more good posts as this one.
Permalink Reply by Megan L Herrod on August 31, 2010 at 4:30pm
From Princeton wordnet:

Noun

* S: (n) dogma, tenet (a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof)
* S: (n) dogma (a doctrine or code of beliefs accepted as authoritative) "he believed all the Marxist dogma"

The issue with dogma is that it is AUTHORITATIVE. There is no disputing it, no discussing it, black and white.

Dogma is a neutral concept really. In essence, a theological rule. Rules are not bad. They are useful and healthy. My daughter is 20 months old and she has loads of rules! Rules can protect us; No climbing on the stove. Rules can guide our behavior in society; say please and thank you! And rules can prevent us from hurting each other; no hitting or biting.

The wiccan rede is dogma... it is a no argument, all situations apply ethic. In my opinion the wiccan rede is too often mis-interpreted and misunderstood. However, I feel that as a guiding ethic, it is true.

Agreement is one thing, and certainly pagans need to find common causes, common ideas, and common ethics! However, the beauty of discussion is that it is dynamic, as we progress, we can move forward and CHANGE if necessary.

The downside of Dogma, is that it is authoritative. There is no ifs and or buts about it.

Am I afraid of Dogma, no. We need ethics, authoritative tenets by which to live, that we all agree upon, that are ALL situations apply ethics.

I have personal opinions, and personal "rules", MY opinions I will discuss, however- they are NOT dogma, they are personal. The same should apply to all others.

Maxims, in my opinion... are the wisest way to organize ethics. Rather than a list of "thou shalt nots" (the yype of dogma that people fear) a GOOD maxim is true, in all circumstances... and will help the follower use them.\

Initiations, Rituals, Ceremonies, all of these are Traditions. They are passed down, but often are not static, unchanging entities. These traditions are not the "authority" within themselves.

Of cour Authority is a nuetral idea as well... we all have leaders, heirarchy, descision makers... we have to or nothing would get done and organized. Leaders focus our energies, and they help govern our communities so things run smoothly.

There is nothing wrong with agreeing, however we need to recognise freedom within reason. Punishing people for not conforming is one ofd the reasons many of us left whatever faith we we before. We want freedom of thought and freedom of opinion. That is diversity...

In my opinion a good Maxim would be: Celebrate Commonality, Accept Diversity.

Should we discuss tough issues! Yes! Should we try to find ethics that are broad enough to encompass many circumstances, that can apply and be agreed upon by everyone? SURE... The discussion is more important than agreement.

However, we should beware of letting one person's quest to make everyone "feel just like me" turn into dogma that doesn't work.

Blessed Be!
-Megan
Permalink Reply by GreenGate on August 31, 2010 at 5:43pm
this is getting interesting...

Megan wrote: “The issue with dogma is that it is AUTHORITATIVE. There is no disputing it, no discussing it, black and white.”

Let’s explore this from a moment. From where is that authoritative Dogma get its power? Let’s set aside for a moment the question “who made the rules, and only ask “what gives this set of rules their authority”? What makes us do things according to those rules and not otherwise?

Assuming that one doesn’t live in a police state where the rules are enforced by force, but in a community of free people, the authority of the rules has only one empowering source: consent. More than that, it comes from general consent.

At the moment when somebody approaches a community, one way or the other, the rules are explained to that person. At that point, the person has choices:
1. Do I join this bunch of people and follow their rules? If you chose to stay, one could almost say that you entered in a verbal agreement, a contract, to uphold the same rules as the rest of the community.
2. Do I walk away?
3. Don’t accept the rules and also don’t leave, instead set yourself up at the fringe as an outsider looking in.

At the moment you chose to join the community, you also accepted the rules, thus you gave them power. Why? Because you promised (albeit a tacit promise) to respect them just like everybody else. It’s a contract.

Hypothetical: a newcomer wants to be part of some group. The priest of that group welcomes him and tells him that the group believes in reincarnation and eternal ancestry. That’s why, in that group everybody is expected to behave respectfully towards the ancestors.

What does that mean? It means that they have a doctrine about something, a doctrine rooted in their belief system, a doctrine that fits their need at that particular time. Nobody says that it can’t be changed should need arise, but it can’t change unless there is wide spread consent from the members of that group, and only to fulfill some new need. At that point, everybody has a choice again to accept the change, or to reject it. The contracts are renegotiated.

The newcomer doesn’t believe in eternal ancestry, nor in reincarnation. Nonetheless he said that he wants to be part of the group, but he will sit out any ritual dedicated to the ancestry. The part of the ritual dedicated to the ancestors starts, and as a show of independence, the newcomer, lights a cigarette, takes out a portable radio and puts the ball game on.

How would you react? Would you defend his right to do so, or would you come down on the side of die dogmatic community and ask him to stop, or do whatever he wants to do elsewhere?

As for the second part of your statement: “There is no disputing it, no discussing it, black and white.”
That’s only the Catholic and maybe the Taliban dogma. The pagan ones are changeable. We do things as we agreed to do them, and we change them also by agreement, never by dictate.
Permalink Reply by Megan L Herrod on August 31, 2010 at 6:05pm
If it is changable, flexible or able to discuss... it isn't Dogma. It may be a principle, an ethic, or a by-law.

If you join a group and the rules are stated, and you join anyways... integrity requires that you would follow those rules, respectfully. That is the nature of joining an organization.

Pretty much all wiccan are compelled to follow the wiccan rede... And if your GROUP interprets it a certain way, you are compelled to agree, or join a different group.

Dogma is generally composed of rules of statements prohibiting or promoting ethics, or hard and fast indisputable ideas about the nature of the universe. Dogma is theologies version of "scientific Law". "Patterns" or Rituals and Ceremonies are traditions, but they are not necessarily Dogma... They are not "have tos" in order to BE a part of the religion and follow its beliefs.

Dogma expects conformity, at all times. It is a lot more than "playong nice".

Definitions of dogma on the Web:

* a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof
* a doctrine or code of beliefs accepted as authoritative; "he believed all the Marxist dogma"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization: it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma

#

# An authoritative principle, belief or statement of opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true regardless of evidence, or without evidence to support it; A doctrine (or set of doctrines) relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth authoritatively by a religious ...
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dogma

# dogmatic - characterized by assertion of unproved or unprovable principles
# dogmatic - relating to or involving dogma; "dogmatic writings"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

# dogmatic - Stubbornly adhering to insufficiently proven beliefs; inflexible, rigid
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dogmatic

Individual groups will have individual rules, or guidelines, or oaths or contracts. Some of these are dogma, some are not. However, there is a big difference between accepting the rules of your chosen group, and being required to conform to a "universal law" for the whole of a religion to belong to that faith.

Groups are usually based on much more focused commonality than the wider religion. That is ok... rules and agreement help organize a group so it can function, however whe one (person, group, authority) assumes to govern the whole without their permission or agreement, things get sticky.

I think we have some wonderful ethics. The wiccan rede, the law of three, common myths... or in other cases; the nine noble virtues... all wonderful, and discussable. I do think you make a spiritual contract when you join our religion, but it should be with the gods, not with the group. If you want to make a contract with the group, that is separate.

-Megan
Permalink Reply by Laramie Roush on August 31, 2010 at 4:46pm
"if that person is a Solitary Eclectic"

That would be me, but not others who might be initiated into a particular tradition.

"Every time you agree to be a part of a group that has rules . . ."

Absolutely agree.

" . . . every time you learn from your teacher and practice what he/she thought you, you are following some sort a dogma... "

Uhm . . . I can't agree with this . . . in every case. Thinking from a micro level here, if my instructor teaches me that 2+2=4, and I test this, discovering it to be true, then I am not following the rules of a teacher; I was guided by him/her.

On the other hand, if I am told that 2+2=5 (or even 4, the correct answer for that matter), and I believe it because that's way I am told to believe, then I am indeed subjecting myself to dogma.

"Look around this site. It is the representation of a beautiful tradition. It has a well defined hierarchy, it has rules, it has clergy, it teaches in a certain way. So... would you call it dogmatic?"

Yes, to a degree (pun definitely intended). This beautiful tradition, Correllian Nativism (and I believe it to beautiful as well), trains clergy who may or may not be dogmatic. It depends on the clergy. The hierarchy is where I have a problem, and is probably the reason I will never be initiated. Its not because I think that there is something wrong with the trad's current leadership; It is very fortunate to have Rev. Don Lewis Highcorrell at its head. The problem is: that can change in the twinkling of an eye. The inherent problem is inherited power.

"Do you cast a circle? Why? Because somebody thought (sic) you to do it"

Sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't. The trappings of a circle, altar tools, talismans, associations, etc . . . are all there to help me with my intent. If my intent, my will, is strong enough, I don't need any of those things.

"Did somebody ever initiated you in something?"

Yes. And I am on my way out of that mess right now.

Now, I agree with you that if dogma presents something true and beautiful, its OK to ascribe by the teachings . . . but not as dogma.

Blessed Be, and
Thanks for making me think :)
Larry
Permalink Reply by Laramie Roush on September 1, 2010 at 5:29am
I said (with subquote):
quote: " 'Every time you agree to be a part of a group that has rules . . '.

'Absolutely agree'."

Let me clarify that. There is joining a group, such as this forum, where rules need to be obeyed while here for the good of others. I'll always be OK with that. I was speaking of joining a group as something like being baptised into a Christian tradition, or joining any other ritual-based oath-bound tradition.

BB
Larry
Permalink Reply by Fantumofthewinds on September 1, 2010 at 6:25am
thanks wonderful topic, dogma, I look at it this way after my many many years of study and research, if it was good enough for those that came before me , then its good enough for me . I would think that within each of us we all carry a degree of lines , [ dogma ] either taught , researched , or truth , which ever it may be their are in each of us lines that the self will simply not cross. we can call this conscience, conscious, spirit , voice, but it is their, and if this is dogma ohh well . Are we really FREE ? only in the mind only in our thoughts. Are rules a bad thing? No, because we as in days of old are directed by them, without rules [ laws ] their would be no way of bring the unlawful to the innocent to justice. In every culture we can see that the very first things that were established was LAW. from the Babylonians,
to Egypt, and yes even Moses handed down the laws to the people. without them their would be no way to rule , their would be on way to classify the just from the unjust . even when we each took it upon our selves to open this page we all made a click stating that [ we ] would abide by the rules set forth by it owners . is this dogma ? it helps to establish the right from the wrong.As far as pagan same old religion????? what religion ?? we have nothing , we were left with nothing , fragmented pieces , and Im very sure that weather a groups or community or village or tribe their were rules among them BB
Permalink Reply by Benjamin on September 1, 2010 at 7:44am
Just keep bumping it please... I am laughing so much that the tears are rolling down my face... FANTASTIC TOPIC GREENGATE and so well put to...

My consensus lies with Hummingbird... there is a degree of difference between rules and dogma, from mild to severe... even in rules there are degrees of severity.. I dont do rules, but if I walk across a zebra crossing and a truck is careening towards me - do I follow the rules and keep crossing the road - it is after all a rule to say that is where you cross the road and its a rule that the truck must stop... or do I break the rule and get the hell out of the road as the truck will drive me flat... Is someone tells me that I must get up at six and I must eat at 7 - I tell them to stuff it. Rules are there keep society with all its differences together, dogma is there to tell us when, how and with what... most pagans will have problems with the latter...
Permalink Reply by GreenGate on September 1, 2010 at 8:01am
1. Could it be that if we totally, or even partially agree with the rules, we calling them rules, but if we don't like them, we say that they are dogma?

2. Could it be that if we understand them, they are rules, but if it isn't clear what is the role of those rules, and why were they formulated in the first place, we condemn them as dogma?

3. Could it be that we have a tendency to see other people's rules as dogma, and our own as something we just agreed upon for the purpose of keeping our community functional?
Permalink Reply by Benjamin on September 1, 2010 at 8:54am
Oh you have valid point with No.3... we will see a splinter in someone else's eye long before we see the roof beam in our own... I think from a pagan viewpoint the word rule is so final and we would rather see people refer to them as guidelines... its all in a word - LOL

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