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Poking the Bear with a stick...

Pamela asked herself what should we discuss next... well, allow me to stir up the cauldron a little bit... hopefully some thoughts will bubble up... :


Question: Why is it that every time there is the slightest waft of possibility that more than a handful of Pagans will agree on something, somebody will invariably stand up and scream:


“DOGMA!, BLOODY DOGMA! DOOM IS UPON US, HERE COMES THE DOGMA!


so.... what is this "dogma" thing?


The dictionary tells us that it means: “a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle.”


Gilbert Keith Chesterton once said “We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end.”



Warning: here starts the poking of the bear!!!!


  1. Of course, every one of us claims to follow his own path... that is if that person is a Solitary Eclectic. Because otherwise... drum roll and a loud trumpet ta-da-da.... you DO follow a Dogma!


  1. Every time you agree to be a part of a group that has rules, every time you learn from your  teacher and practice what he/she thought you, you are following some sort a dogma... so...  why do we delude ourselves that we are independent spirits?


  1. Look around this site. It is the representation of a beautiful tradition. It has a well defined  hierarchy, it has rules, it has clergy,  it teaches in a certain way. So... would you call it dogmatic?


  1. Do you cast a circle? Why? Because somebody thought you to do it, through word of mouth,  or through a book. So.... you are a follower of rules, even if you dress it up with whistles and  bells.


  1. Did somebody ever initiated you in something? Well, if he/she did, he/she did it according to a dogma.


Why do we automatically think that rules are a bad thing? I put it to you that in some cases, rules are there to preserve peace, give clarity, and ensure mutual respect.


I further put it to you, that Pagan Dogma is fundamentally different to ALL others? Hm.... I can see you uncomfortably shifting around in your chair and wondering why...


Because it isn't set in stone!!!!. The one thing that is important about every single flavor of tradition under the Pagan umbrella, is that it is fluid, it adapts to the needs of those who choose it. It evolves. We don't have things set in stone for centuries, we adapt to the times. But that does not mean that  we shouldn't have rules. Like it or not, there are points of commonality between most Pagan flavors.


Commonality = a platform, a foundation.


We would do well to remind ourselves that Paganism isn't the same as other religions. It has its own quirks. It's time to get over the old hangups... this isn't the other religion. If the other religion hurt you  and made you hypersensitive to rules, get over it, because if you don't, it still keeps you prisoner.  Pagan beliefs are a whole new ball game, with rules that adapt to what we need at the time.


We would do also well to remember that if we fear “dogma” so much as to block (in the name of  infinite all inclusive diversity) the development of a coherent community, we are doomed to fail.


If we refuse to stand for something , we stand for nothing.



p.s. (and this is the cherry on this particular cake): Isn't the fear of dogma dogmatic in itself?


... stepping aside...

... putting on the football helmet for protection....

... opening the gates, and hoping that there wont be a bunch of angry villagers with torches and pitchforks on the other side...

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Laramie Roush on September 1, 2010 at 9:40am
Really, GreenGate, I think the word "dogma" must apply to a belief system, i.e. a "religion".
Rules have to do with how we govern ourselves as a community, people, nation, whatever.

However I do see your point that there are some overlaps.

Rule: No interupting the preacher in church.
Dogma: You must believe what the preacher says.
Overlap: The preacher says "God doesn't want you interrupting the preacher."

Benjamin,
I like the new pic. :)
Permalink Reply by Benjamin on September 1, 2010 at 10:04am
Thanks Laramie - snow in England... last year. Coming from HOT Africa snow is a novelty and we cant understand why everyone is running for shelter... lol
Permalink Reply by Megan L Herrod on September 1, 2010 at 5:14pm
This is a discussion of conotation now...

there are plenty of words that, due to life experiences of culture, we add connotations to that we shouldn't... if you feel really good or really bad about them you SHOULD evaluate why. This is because if we see a nuetral concept as universally bad or universally good we cannot, with total honesty, discuss them in a conversation without attaching our personal tastes to them...

Let me list a few neutral ideas:

1. Tradition
2. Organization
3. Government
4. Law
5. Religion
5. Theology
6. Doctrine
7. Change
8. Emotion
9. Logic
10. Ethics
11. Morality
12. Taboo
13. Mundane
14. Common
15. Different
16. Explicit
17. Green
18. Energy
19. Power
20. Control

If any of these give you "warm fuzzies"- ask why... if they make you feel uncomfortable, ask why... the word themselves change depending on the context, but without context the words should be as neutral as the words; carpet and refrigerator (of those words are not neutral, eek!)

More food for thought... munch munch...

-Megan
Permalink Reply by Laramie Roush on September 1, 2010 at 7:26pm
Hi, Megan.

In the post you made giving many, (you certainly do a lot of work wwhen you post. I dearly love that!) definitions of the word, the one thing all those definitions had in common was that dogma was not to be questioned.

No matter how good something seems to be it should never fall into this catagory or we become locked into position, so to speak. From what I have seen of CNT so far, it is very flexible and doesn't seem to fall into this way of thinking.

Copernicus ran headfirst into church dogma when he claimed that the Earth was NOT the center of the universe. The theory of a heliocentric universe was published just before his death (fortunately for him) in his work, De revolutionibus orbium coelestium in 1543. When Galileo Galilei published his Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems in 1632 he came close to losing his life because he also challenged the dogmatic view of geocentrism, with the Earth at the center of everything. Even though he had seen undisputable proof in his telescope, he was forced to recant for heresy and locked in his home under gaurd for the rest of his life.

Now, even though these men were closer to the truth than the previous paradigm, they were still wrong. The Sun is NOT the center of the universe. Beginning with William Herschel's ideas in the 18th century, and culminating in the work of Edward Hubble in the 20th century, it is now known that our solar system is one of many . . . in a galactic system (also one of many) we call the Milky Way.

The barrier which every advancement had in common was dogma. Newtonian physics were taken to be sacrosanct until only recently. Newtons laws went unchallenged for centuries because it explained how things work on the macro scale in our universe. Max Planck, one of the founders of Quantum Physics, needed to challenge Newton's laws because at the atomic level particles do not obey these laws.

This could indeed go on and on, but we are in a very promising era when it seems science and faith are starting to "patch things up" a bit. At least science is taking the first steps toward reconcilliation. So far the Protestant camp of the Judeo Christian tradition isn't having any of it. No matter how many flowers of discovery about the nature of things pointing to a finite beginning in time . . . no matter how many boxes of "No matter could have come into being without a conscious observer" chocolates, she will not take him back.

It disagrees with her dogma.

BB
Larry
Permalink Reply by GreenGate on September 1, 2010 at 12:24pm
Nota Bene: Should I involuntarily commit a faux pas with the example below, I apologize in advance. My intention with this exercise is only to test the conviction and the validity of some things that were said or implied in this thread, so that we ultimately may learn something from it.

Let's put the so firmly declared hatred of dogma to the test: This is a Hypothetical, and I repeat,
THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL!

Rev. Donald Lewis - Highcorrell, First Priest and Paramount High Priest of the Correllian Tradition, Chancellor of the Tradition etc, in an interview answers some questions about... let's say... Lustranions.

He clarifies in no uncertain terms who is entitled, and who is not entitled to conduct a Lustration. These rules were probably thought to him by his teacher, who learned it from his teacher, and so on, and so on, right back to The Founder.

so.. The First Priest and Paramount High Priest has spoken in no uncertain terms, with the authority of his high office, about rights, structure, and customs within the tradition. He has laid down the Law as it stands today. Black and White.

Now, my Brothers and Sisters, Children of Gaea, free spirits under the stars, stand up and be counted. Will you call a spade by its name? Is this dogma? And please explain to me why, and how is this a bad thing.
Permalink Reply by Magickal Hummingbyrd on September 1, 2010 at 10:55pm
♥)O(♥ NO ... That Is NOT Dogma ~ That Is About Titles & *Rules* Of Conduct & Clergy Ritual Duties! ~~~ *Dogma* Is The Ridgid Inflexible ***Theological Dogma Belief System*** That Allows For NO Voicing Of Any Personal Direct Mystical Magickal Spiritual Experiences! ~~~ NO Expansion! ~~~ Dogma Is Allowing NOTHING Out Of The Ridgid Limited *Theological Belief* Dogmatically Proclaimed By The One In Authority. ~~~ Dogmatism Has Nothing To Do With Titles & Clergy Duties !!! ~~~ Rev. Don Is NOT Dogmatic !!! He *Welcomes Diversity* In Beliefs In The Correllian Tradition & He Is Quite Universal & A Gentleman !!! ~~~ Please, STOP Trying To Incite Trouble Within The Correllian Tradition. We Have Had ENOUGH Of It From Outsiders. ♥)O(♥
Permalink Reply by Benjamin on September 2, 2010 at 12:37am
NOBODY IN INCITING - we are merely challenging your thought process and making you learn how you feel and what you feel when someone does ask hard questions.

Just on the off hand... it was a HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE .
Permalink Reply by Magickal Hummingbyrd on September 2, 2010 at 1:33am
♥)O(♥ If It Is A "Hypothetical Example" Then "Hypothetical" Imaginary People Should Be Used As An Example. ~~~ Citing Rev. Don Lewis As An EXAMPLE Of A *** Dogmatic *** Autocrat Dictator ~ As Well As The Correllian Traditon ~ Is Not An Appropriate Nor Friendly Thing To Do !!! ~~~ That Is Just Like What The Other *Trolling* Sites Do & Say About Rev. Don & The Correllian Tradition. ~~~ Benjamin ... Can't You SEE What Is Going On Here? This Is Not Well~Meaning Towards Us! Use Your Psychic Senses! ... Please! ♥)O(♥
Permalink Reply by Benjamin on September 2, 2010 at 12:35am
I'll submit - it is dogma... for the simple reason if I challenge him as per your example and say it should not be done like this but like that - then I would be challenging the rule - and depending on how sacrosanct that rule is or how flexible the HP is, will determine how severely I attack his DOGMA... AND THE SUBSEQUENT SCREAMING MATCH THAT WILL ENSUE.
Permalink Reply by GreenGate on September 2, 2010 at 3:55am
Serendipity. Please watch the Chancellor 's September the first Vlog. It was published today on Youtube.
Permalink Reply by Benjamin on September 2, 2010 at 12:34pm
The Rev Don Lewis quoted from Time for Daybreak"The Correllian Tradition is a very open-minded Tradition. We do not as a rule object if members of our Clergy and Mentors have personal opinions that differ from our teachings, but when they are acting in their official capacity as Clergy or Mentors we do expect them to set these personal opinions aside and teach the Correllian point of view."

Just for the record - this is called DOGMA

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