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Saw this on Belief net (which I don't normally go to actually, just was surfing around).
http://blog.beliefnet.com/news/2011/11/pope-warns-against-witchcraf...
He's telling this to people in Africa in tribes that have been doing this child sacrifice thing for probably longer than Catholicism has been around. I don't think it has anything to do with the movies in the USA, really.
Makes me wonder where are the pagan missionaries to travel around and help people see what paganism really is about? Not everyone in places like Africa or remote places has internet, YouTube, etc.
Replies are closed for this discussion.
Permalink Reply by Nine Lives on Pagans don't have missionaries.
Permalink Reply by Carolyn Suman on 
Permalink Reply by Phoenix Rising on I think by any definition, missionary work is presumptuous. It is pre-judging the ways of others as being somehow 'less valid' than our own ways. An inevitable result is the feeling by some of those to whom the missionaries are 'ministering' that they are being patronized or encouraged to feel 'worthless and/or sinful'. This damages their feelings of self-esteem, and encourages them to rely upon others to define their self-worth. And, as you say, cultural coherence and knowledge is lost in the process of homogeneity, as cultures are closely identified with religions. All too often, traditional religious and civil 'authorities' are ridiculed and humiliated, and the lack of them causes chaos to reign in the whole geographic area, resolved only by the civil as well as religious control of outsiders.
Permalink Reply by Rachael Sue Rubin on It is on the world news, it is not the ones claiming to be witches, it is the africans burning people alive and children whose families are practicing witchcraft. It is terrible, these tribes are not educated and if a child has birthmarks or disfigurement they abandon them and say they are witches, and the so called christian missionaries are making it worse, very ignorant uneducated people reading in the bible, thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. So being uneducated they take it literal and are carrying this out on fellow tribesmen, even their own witchdoctors are being killed.
Which thou shalt not suffer a witch to live really means, back two thousand years ago, they were talking about you should not go to a witchwomean or man who does sorcery to heal you are your livestock, because you are enabling them to make money on their craft and make a living off of witchery.
Even when the bible was written they did not mean kill witches and burn them, but the whole of the world is not educated and they take every word literal.
Misunderstanding of the written word in any religion is a dangerous thing.
Permalink Reply by Phoenix Rising on In the Beliefnet article, the impression I got was that the Catholics are having issues with the Pentecostals encouragement of the literal translations of such verses as you have mentioned, Rachael. This issue is not simply Traditional African religions following their practices, it is more about the CHRISTIAN Africans mutilating and killing children and elderly for being 'witched' or being witches. After reading the same news item by several different news services, this impression was confirmed. Once more, literal, fundamental Christianity is killing anyone who is in any way 'different'!
The issue isn't Witchcraft, it's Christianity, superstition, and ignorance!! in other words, people just being people~~
BTW - your impression of the verse you mentioned has other interpretations - specifically, the mistranslation of the Hebrew word as 'witch', where the original word meant 'sorcerer-medium-delaer with Spirits'. What was being forbidden by this verse was Necromancy - trafficking with the Dead and 'raising' their spirits for the selfish use of the living. It's part of why King Saul was condemned for going to the Witch of Endor.
Permalink Reply by Phoenix Rising on Yes, a Pope DID condemn Islam - he called the first Crusade. The Pope condemns EVERY religion except his brand of Catholicism, however~~ Funny how he can do that - LOL!
I agree - most Christians couldn't care less about Witches and Wicca. The problem in question is the African Christians who are being encouraged by extremists among the Pentecostal Christian missionary groups to persecute witches among them.
Permalink Reply by Sparrow on I understand and agree with what Seven Moons said.
I think he basically meant that Education is the key and I agree.
It is difficult for those not in there situation to criticize, I am in a different reality from these African Villages.
Now that being said, I think it would be great to see a Pagan educational outreach of some kind,
People are kept down for many reasons and from different forces. Often times it is greedy corrupt Leaders. And the result is impoverished and often uneducated or even starving people who feel hopeless.
In fact they may feel that the baby they sacrifice may die of starvation anyway!!!!
(An important point that well fed westerners may not realize)
However, of course no one should ever think that this act of sacrifice is Morally correct in any circumstance.
I am just saying that conditions vary around the world.
Education and functional flowing economies as well as protective laws are the answer.
We don't live on an island by ourselves, we humans need each others help.
And we need to let the world know that Wicca is not about sacrificing babies or any other awful practice.
Permalink Reply by Drakill Tannan on I'll defend the pope on this one. Disclaimer: i still hate the guy.
Most of us come from either first world or developing countries. And thouse of us that come from a third world country are among the higher social class and have a lot of money compared to others, else we wouln't have computers nor internet. Our lives have been quite fine compared to thouse of the poorer people, and since a crappy childhood is what causes people to do such horrible things as child sacrifice because it hardens them, hence it is extremly unlikely any of us will ever engage in such activities because a more-less helthy human being rejects such things naturally. This is not the case for everone, however, and in poor countries children have horrible lives, and as they grow up they don't mind or even like such horrid rituals, pagan or not.
Don't make the mistake of thinking all pagans are the stereotypical hippy most of the internet wiccans are. That's like saying that because wiccan witches are nice, all witches are nice, there are witches that knowingly bind the free will of others, use sorcery to cause harm and suffering and for selfish means, and they don't care; there are pagans that are not very nice, and their particular belifs can be quite dark and twisted and they can and will engange in rituals such as child sacrifice. It happens. It's horrible but it does happen.
And it has happened since a long time ago. Saying it goes on from before catholisism existed and it is performed by pagan witches is absolutley correct, weather we like it or not.
Of cource, this does not mean all wiccans and witches are this way. But no one here is a spokesperson for paganism nor witchcraft. Just because you're nice, doesn't mean everyone is.
Permalink Reply by Phoenix Rising on Drakill, I bow to thy wisdom! *applause*
You have cut to the heart of this issue! Some folks are all too happy to be able to get all indignant about the world-wide standard usage of the world 'witch', which has been understood since Ancient Times as a term for a Magick-User who willfully does harm to others. I don't much like the term myself, for that reason, and use it for myself as seldom as possible for that reason. But, like it or not, there ARE places where witches DO bad things, for whatever reason!!
Our Ancestors in the Craft did not call THEMSELVES 'Witches' - they called themselves Healers and Wise Women and Wise Men and Cunning Folk, and Priestesses and Priests. Contrary to popular opinion, it was not the Witch Craze in medieval Europe that defamed the title of 'Witch' - it was already in usage a very long time before that as a pejorative term for people who perverted the will of others through magickal means
The title of 'Witch' was applied to those whom the Catholic Church wanted to make victims BECAUSE it was an emotion-laden pejorative. I understand the desire of some in the forefront of the early movement of the Craft to wish to 'redeem' the word, but I don't agree with it. Back in the 1960's and 1970's many people also believed fallacies about the supposed history of the Craft which were subsequently proven false as well...
I personally think that Crowley used the term for it's shock value, and Gardner took it up because Crowley used it, and he was an admirer of Crowley. I know personally, I do have serious reservations about taking on myself a label that was placed on some of the things I do simply because a rabid publicity seeker chose to use the term to get attention and shock people!!
Witch, Coven, Sabbat and Esbat are all terms directly from the Malleus Mallificorum, the infamous "Hammer of the Witches', the 'Bible' of the witch-hunters of the Middle Ages. I have seen arguments that the term 'Witch' is used in 'Aradia, the Gospel of the Witches', but it must be remembered that Aradia didn't become known until Leland published it in the !800's. Who wrote it and when and why is totally unknown, but I seriously doubt that it predates the witch hunts and witch craze of the Medieval years.
Permalink Reply by Rachael Sue Rubin on i wouldn't waste my time to cross the street if the pope was speaking anyway, just sayin, the catholic church has caused more wars, and crimes agaisnt humanity than any other. They have no control over the united states anymore, so of course they go to a counrty, that is poverty ridden, and undereducated people, easiest to control, promise salvation and there you go, control.
Permalink Reply by Drakill Tannan on Heh, i too hate the institution deeply. Ironically though, the catholic churc has also been the most charitable organization in history... although it we weight the bad with the good they've done, i'd say their bad weights more, but that's a point of view merely.
Damn. I'll stop defending it now, or i'll get sick.
(Or saved...)
Permalink Reply by Phoenix Rising on Yes, Drakill - I too agree that on the whole, the Catholic Church has done more good than harm, worldwide. We tend to forget that not everyone is psychically 'ready' for what has been called 'The Higher Mysteries'. People cling to what brings them comfort and which they understand in their own way, on their own level. The thing I see 'wrong' with all of the Abrahamic religions is their exclusivity - their dogmatic insistence that their way is the ONLY way!
I know several adult children of Wiccan acquaintances and friends who were raised with the Wheel of the Year, and educated in Wicca as a religion, and whom have all gone their own way, none of them remaining in the Faith of their Mothers~ The common thread? - it's 'too hard' to have to meditate and study and follow the Rede. It's easier to just go to Church on Sunday, and know that God loves them and is taking care of them, and all of their sins are forgiven, because Jesus died on the Cross for them.
I think only when we have climbed far enough on the ladder of rebirth, are we ready to know the Goddess AND the God, and then we are unequivocally 'Called' be Them...
After all, even in the Bible is it not written that "... there is meat for men, and milk for babes."?
I think there is much of value in the Bible and all of the other written Holy books of humanity, but not all things are suited intrinsically to all people, or there would only BE now and only ever have been, one World Religion...
I think that's the heart of the reason Wicca does NOT proselytize, personally. Those who are 'Called' will find the way, and the Journey is part of the Wiccan 'Way'... We know we are on an endless Journey, finding new surprises and vaster beauty than we ever had imagined existed over each hill and around each bend~
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