Recently, I watched Rev. Don's Vlog about "trickster" deities. It seemed as if a light came on for me about the Christian concept of Satan. Anthropologically speaking, Satan is a deity by any sociologist's definition, and exists as part of a religious pantheon. Could it be that (within Christianity) Satan is the personification, not of evil, but of the chaotic forces which bring about needed change (like it or not!)? I can't count how many times someone has quoted the scripture which says "All things work together for the good . . . ". I know that this is not a Christian forum, but I do have Christian friends. Could this be something to point out to those who are trying to "evangelize" us?
It is an Interesting point you make and one I thought of instantly when Watching the V-log.
I think My main argument against Some But not all so called Pagans that were born again as Christians is that on there T.V. Shows they often tell a lie that is repeated, this Lie is as Follows.
1. They were once Witches (But if I quiz them on even the most Basic thing they fail Horribly Including Bible versus)
2. There is always this almost rehearsed story of how they "Started with peaceful Witchcraft or what they call "White Magic" then it evolves one special day to becoming a Satanist if you want to find the "Real Power" .
As if We as Witches are not an everyday ,dedicated , Disciplined Practice but as if we exist as a Gateway or Doorway to becoming a Satanist it is so ridiculous.
Yes I have met Satanists but they are what they are they do not enter through us for the Most part they think we (especially a religious Witch like Me ) are sheep.,That we are weak for believing .
As far as Satan as Trickster it is possible I guess, the Devil as one who pushes things forward , I think it is personally better to be Naturally Pulled forward then to be forcibly pushed But you make an interesting point.-Blessed Be Larry
" . . . it evolves one special day to becoming a Satanist . . . "
Yeah, that is the craziest thing to say, and just gives them away for the phonies they are. Back in the day when I believed such nonsense there was a guy named Mike Warnke. He claimed to have been a Satanic HP, and wrote a book called "The Satan Seller" which was a Christian best-seller. He said all of those things. He was also exposed as a fraud and lost his following (and most of his income). He worked with police dept.'s and gave lectures about ritual sacrifice. He made (excuse the pun) a HELLUVA lot of money. I'm glad he's out of bussiness.
Now for those nutcases who think the world is ending tomorrow o_O
I am glad you got my point on this,I did drift away from your original question a bit I as well would like to point out that I was not ranting against Theistic Satanist's as I know there are a few on this sight I was ranting more against Frauds like the one you mentioned and stating that I am not a Satanist nor do I feel the Connection.< I have gotten (no pun intended ) Burned severely for Making the "Witches are not Satanists" point on other sites.(Ok that was a pre-coffee pun that I feel should be followed by an apology haha!)>
I think Fantum makes an interesting points.
In the case of the Norse Tradition Loki the Trickster seemed very necessary at times for being so clever and as well he did cause alot of trouble so lets compare the 2 1.Satan and 2.Loki,
There are similarities but I see Loki as being more necessary and not always the adversary though I am not an expert. Some of the stories I remember of Loki was that he was amazingly smart and the Gods would ask for his help.
Were as in the Bible I do not remember to much Positive communication between Gad and Satan or of God asking for his assistance.
Someone may point out otherwise but that is my quickie opinion before coffee I might add.
Sparrow, there is a scripture that deals with a prophet (magician) named Baalam. It seems that he was known by a foriegn king and was hired to curse the Israelites by him. Well, on his way to do the cursing (one of many attempts) his donkey began to speak to him (!!!). (Well, the KJV says it was his "ass". Perhaps one bowl of beans too many?) Anyway, he threatened the donkey who would travel no further. At that point he saw what is translated as "the angel of the LORD". That is a bad translation. What it said was that the servant of the LORD, Ha-Satan, stood in his way with a sword in his hand. His name means adversary, and it is the same name given to this angel in other places. In this instant he was working (in the story/myth) for JHVH. But he played the donkey trick on him, (he also, in addition to making the donkey speak, caused the beast to crush his leg against a rock) and then scared the mortal crap out of him with his own presence. This is very similar to tricksters from other pantheons.
The book of Job, though it's story is not chronologically the oldest, is the oldest text in Judeo-Christian literature. Satan appears before the supreme God's throne, and is sent to test Job. He doesn't seem to be anything other than the same trickster. And . . . his mission was instigated by the supreme God. He didn't come up with this on his own. Later, Yahweh takes the credit for all of the pain and suffering inflicted upon Job. Satan was just the messenger.
OK, I know I am lacking citations, but I was never any good at memorizing Bible verses . . . LMAO!
Well your better than me at Bible versus, I do understand that Satan played a certain role as Trickster and Honestly I think it is a good debate topic, BUT My question is did God ever ask for Satan to get him out of a jam the way Norse Gods asked Loki to get them out of a Jam.
I don't really Know. I am going to start Reading the Bible more though I do know some things But I think Witches should read the Bible as Well as the Gidas of Hinduism and Buddhist and Taoist writings It is good to know the Different Paths that are in some way connected anyway as it is, In my opinion.
But Damn It (Know Pun intended ) I like being a Witch -Blessed BE
needed change as in ? the self ? situations? explain . Larry you will find this all over the world and in ever culture not just in the christian system , first off what is the trixter deity ? if we look at this on a human level it is one who breaks all the rules or that which God / Gods have set forth, along with that of nature. Is christian the only culture with this ? of course not and to think so would be ignorance in its self. what do these trixters all have in common? they adhear to destroy, dismember, fire bringers, the Fool, bring fright, gluttony, Imp,mask themselves, Murders, Rogue, the Seducer,they can change the appearance of how something should be, the Thief, and bring mischief, and where is it that we shell find these ? everywhere, and yes even within the self, give them some horns, slap on some paint,make them half man and animal,or either or, or perhaps none at all, just man. well ya got them and here they are BB
"needed change as in ? the self ? situations? explain ."
All of that, Fantum. It just causes me to scratch my head that what could be a useful and meaningful way of viewing adversity is seen by others as the equal and opposite of all that is good. Then personified into a deity. It seems that every time something goes wrong in their lives they want to blame "The Devil". My last experience with this aspect of deity nearly took my life. However, it forced me to get clean from my addictions, which were many. It was the best thing that could have happened to me at the time, but it sure didn't feel like it. It took 3 years of my life away from me, and I am still reeling from it.
Of course Larry , my ' whole point ' devil, demon, what ever we choose to coat or cloth this in. we must all know our ' limitations ', we must understand that living a good life does not mean taking things to extremes if we do so, it is the ' we ' that suffer the consequences for our own self inflicted actions. thats not so say that this nagitive , dark , devil , demon does not exist. this force is expressed in many ways and we see it threw out history as well as mytho's these expressions as I call them tells us or leads us to believe what will happen or could possibly happen, there is no doubt in my mind. life is a two edged sword my friend, and we must all choose wisely. " suffering " is part of the journey here if not for your suffering / devil , you would not have found your way out , and there are many that still don't get it. So paint your ' devils' how ever you choose , but this never the less does not make then unreal , your living proof that they are my friend BB
Larry, I sit here trying to think of a way to cut down my answer to something short and I'm not sure I can but I will try. If we go into our closet and change clothes do we become a different person? For example if I decide to wear a pirate costume to work one day does that make me an actual pirate, of course not. The point I'm not making well is it wouldn't matter if you called the trickster Loki or Satan or Coyote. Every religion that I've looked at so far has had the same basic principles and ideas. Just because you call a Deity one name and I use another doesn't make one of us right and the other wrong. Good and bad or right and wrong or yin and yang or push and pull these all depend on your point of view. So a short answer to your question would be yes, however that would be like calling a steak meat which is true but doesn't capture the entire complexity of what your trying to convey. So I would suggest not starting any conversations with this one, maybe ask if they have any idea where their religion got most if not all their major holidays and symbols and such, basically encourage them to learn things for themselves. Knowledge is the key to all things some you'll want and some you wont. You must choose wisely what you learn. And thats way longer than what I wanted but shorter than it started.
" And thats way longer than what I wanted but shorter than it started."
Thank you, Rob. I do have a favorite Christian author, Marcus Borg, and he tends to see things the same way. Marcus is one of the few rare ones who view all paths as valid. His historical research and reports are second to none.
It seems that the Greek pantheon consisted of deities who could turn trickster at any time. Even the most benevolent God or Goddess could do some very cruel things/play cruel tricks, on each other as well as toward humans. However, they weren't "evil" as such. I'm also certain that the ancients who followed the Norse Pantheon did not view Loki as the epitome of evil. He was emblematic of the turns that fate seems to deal us at times. Without this chaotic pressure, we humans would never evolve. It has been said that "necessity is the mother of invention", (or as I simply say: "Necessity is a Mother!"). So the last thing that I would want to do is to shake my fist at a personalization of this force, and to call something that important "evil".
Thanks again, for your input. I enjoyed your response, and am glad to see that I may not be so far out in left field if others see this too.