MM Everyone,

Recently, I was informed by a rather concerned Christian that I needed to pray in order to cultivate a relationship with God, so that He could show me the way. When I replied that I do indeed pray, quite often in fact, and that my relationship with the Gods is quite loving and fulfilling, his eyes nearly popped out of his head. I don't know why, but it often seems as though the "Abrahamics" feel as though they have some sort of monopoly on prayer.

Well anyway, this got me to thinking about prayer in general. For me, prayer is a very personal spiritual practice. I hate to pray in public, unless it is part of some sort of group related religious service or ritual. That being said, I've always felt uncomfortable around people that make big, public spectacles out of their personal prayers - seems so...bogus.

In my spiritual practice, I tend to utilize three types of prayers: petitioning prayers, gratitude prayers, and meditative prayers (usually in the form of a chant). I also like to collect prayers from other spiritual practices and mystical works. There have been so many Spiritual Masters throughout the centuries, that it would be foolish to not try and benefit from their insights. These help me to formulate some of my own prayers and help me to cultivate "that feeling" or "proper attitude" when communing with Deity.

This is just part of my take on prayer. What are some of your thoughts?

I leave you with one of my favorite collected prayers. It comes to us from the great Zoroaster:

All that I ought to have thought and have not thought;
All that I ought to have said and have not said;
All that I ought to have done and have not done;
All that I ought not to have thought and yet have thought;
All that I ought not to have spoken and yet have spoken;
All that I ought not to have done and yet have done;
For thoughts, words and works, pray I for forgiveness, and repent of with penance.

Bright Blessings,

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Oh, i don't doubt that for some the Lord's Prayer could be just what you describe it as. I just would really like to see a reference or link for it's predating Christianity, as I've never run across one. Just my oversize bump of curiosity - LOL! Like I said - i like learning new things, and I can't find anything on it.

I'll try to get you the source, sunday will be the earliest i can, though!

Actually if u want to get technical it is a Jewish prayer.

For thine is the kingdom,

The power, and the glory,

For ever and ever.


ATEH (thou art)

MALKUTH (Kingdom)

VE-GEVURAH (and Power)

VE-GEDULAH (and Glory)

LE-OLAHM (for ever) AMEN.

This is the supposed prayer the archangels say continuously circling around the throne of God, it is said if they stop the world and universe would end. (Michael, Raphael,Uriel,Gabriel).

This is the point of the Lesser banishing ritual, since you have the divine spark in you and are part of god, you are calling the angels to circle around and protect you from evil.

So yes this prayer predates christianity. But you are definitely praying to Yahweh.

And that would be a contradiction on our part to say we are wiccan and then pray to Yahweh, is all we are saying, Drakill.

I suppose it depends on the wiccan tradition. I was still under the idea that Wicca see's the Diety as an infinite-faced god, and naming or symbolising it would only symbolise one fragment of, I.E., pantheism. After all it was founded by a Mason, and that's a universally accepted stance among masons... at least that i know personally. It might just be my area though.
And i strongly belive Judaism is also, in it's core, pantheism, so it shouldn't be incompatible. YHWH is merely a kymatic formula to summon god, after all.

EDIT: As always, i could be wrong.

sorry, but by your explanation i am not wiccan, because i do not think that cernunnos and Yahweh are the same god. (or different aspects of God).

But that is just personal opinion also. And yes YHVH is a formula to summon god (Yahweh).
Yod(east) He(south) Vau(west) He(north) and the archangels who correspond to the respective quarters. So they believe you are calling "God" in fact you are calling everything in creation.

But the problem is as a wiccan or witch, this is goddess worship not god worship, and you are not calling the feminine principle or acknowledging that there is one. I have only seen one version of the lesser banshing where instead of saying and above me shines the six rayed star, they say Shekina descend upon me now.

As a wiccan and a woman i want the feminine principle acknowledged or i would just go to a catholic church or christian church on sunday.

it is not compatible with what i believe. I am a goddess worshipper and that is who i want acknowledge not the christian god.(or Jewish)

Knowing that you're not Wiccan explains your thoughts, Drakill. I do tend to agree with your assessment of Judaism and Christianity as being at the core, pantheistic, although both avow their beliefs to be firmly monotheistic. The Saints, Jinn, Demons, and Angels are, after all, acknowledged to exist, and are often invoked for protection and aid. They just weasel out of pantheism by saying that those entities are 'servants' of their Father-God, rather than lesser Deities.
Seeing, acknowledging and respecting Deity as many-faceted is one thing Wiccans do, Drakill. But Wicca does not generally equate all Names of God or Goddess as being one and the same God or Goddess, who is actually only one Supreme Deity. Most Wiccans worship and interact with particular Named Deities. At the minimum, Wiccans worship the Divine Feminine, in one (or several) of the forms of Goddess.

By whatever Name one calls Him by, the Abrahamic Father-God is a specific Deity - ie - a 'Named' Deity. Many, if not most Wiccans have issues with using prayers and rituals written for the worship of a Deity Whose words of instruction to His worshipers begin with "Thou shalt have no other Gods before ME". In the Abrahamic forms of worship, there is no place for the Divine Feminine. Indeed, in all three of the mainline Abrahamic religions, women are effectively second class citizens. The woman is 'given' to the man to work for him and obey him. The Creation stories all specify that MAN has Dominion, and woman is to serve God through serving man. The whole story of the Fall points up that woman is able to be easily deceived by a Tempter, and it is totally wrong for her to think for herself and disobey - thus Man must rule her firmly and she is is to be utterly subservient.
This attitude towards the Divine Feminine and women in general is why so many female Wiccans/Witches react so strongly to adding Biblical elements to their worship. I don't believe men have quite as many issues with this , however.

That does clarify your position. I get it now, thanks.

I suspected you may have laboring under a misapprehension, as I knew from other discussions you are not Wiccan. Have a great weekend!

That would be really cool! thanks, Drakill~~

Sorry phoenix, totally forghot to check the source untill i bumped into this a few minutes ago:

I'm not going to say it's official and true, but might be worth checking out while i go check that source (next saturday..).

Thanks, Drakill - the video was amusing! As I'm not into Ascension Theory, Ascended Masters, or Atlantis and Conspiracy Theory, however, I don't consider it proof of any kind. I could take ANY prayer and make it fit a theological system after the fact, as the person does with the chakras and the Lord's Prayer. I'm not into believing the 'revelations' of others unless my own investigations on both a mundane and a visionary level confirm them.
Does the author of this video believe them? Undoubtedly - thus for him (or her) it IS truth. For me, it is not - sorry~ It's unverified personal gnosis, at best, and a torturous fitting together of pieces to try to include all popular theories in one grand unified theory.

Oh, nevermind all the atlantean thing. I've put all that in the "Meh, i don't buy it" box in my brain too, what i meant was the division of the Lord's Prayer in correspondence to the chakras.

...Kinda like the one i found in Max Heindel's book... i just remembered i have an occult analysis of the lord's prayer, rosicrucian-view-point-wise in my bedroom, let me look for it and i'll post in in a few minutes.




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