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THIS DISTURBED ME...

I will begin with a disclaimer: in the present post, I will use the words Wicca and witchcraft, and Wiccan and witch, interchangeably, because the author of the statement I'll be referring to uses both words that way. It does not reflect my personal belief, but that of the Correllian Tradition.

I have come across this statement in the last lesson (#48) of the class "Living the Wiccan Life," in the Self-Wiccaning's intro:

"I believe that Wiccans are born, not made. If this is the path of heart for you, you were born a Wiccan, and probably have been Wiccan in many if not all of your past lives."

I had to re-read it a few times to make sure I hadn't hallucinated.

Now. I have no problem with the idea that Wicca is a path of the heart.

However.

You CANNOT be BORN a Wiccan. This is absurd. Wicca is a religion! Can you be born a Christian? Or a Muslim? Or a Buddhist? No, no, and no. You are NEVER born into a religion. Saying you were born into a specific religious path is a segregationist lie. You CHOOSE, at some point, a certain faith, either by continuing to follow what you were taught or by changing religions, because that's where your heart and soul resonate. The same applies to Wicca.

Stating that one is born a Wiccan (in the sense of witch) is dangerously close to elitism. It is dangerously close to the “we, and not them” mentality. “You gotta be born into it.” This is, quite simply, a wrong value to uphold.

Not to mention the second part of the statement: “probably have been Wiccan in many, if not all, of your past lives.”

First, a bit of history: Wicca, as a spiritual path, has existed only since the late 1940's. Second, Witchcraft, from what little is known of it, was not exactly a religion before Gardner. AND, most importantly, thinking that one is part of only one religion in all of their incarnations, as is suggested here, is incredibly narrow-minded.

How can one presume that all of the followers of Wicca in 2010 have been witches in past lives (maybe all of them!), and that explains why they come to the craft now?

Don't tell me once a witch, always a witch. Don't tell me that today's witches could not have been, in another life, something else than a Wiccan. As we come in each incarnation to learn and experience, it goes without saying that we all have experienced different religious paths, including those who are opposed to the craft. Oh yes. Even those. Some Wiccans today HAVE sent people to the pyre, and some of those convicted witches are Christian Fundamentalists today.

If one was NEVER a witch in any previous life, but is a witch in this one, is s/he less a witch than another who was a witch 50 times before? Don't tell me that in order to be a true witch, one has to have been a witch in a previous life.

Don't tell me that today's Christian Fundamentalists, or the Talibans, or the atheists, have never been anything else than what they are today, or are forever condemned to remain so for the rest of their Soul's existence!

Don't tell me that a fervent Wiccan who, for some reason, at some point feels a call toward Buddhism and changes faith, was not a true Wiccan while he walked the path of Wicca!

Don't tell me that the Soul is forever attached to one walk of faith only... That speaks of discrimination.

Still, in a very subtle way, that statement hints at these very ideas....

Let's consider this: the Soul couldn't care less about religion – let alone Deity. Deity will put you on the path that will make you grow at a specific time – and that will change from life to life, and even during one life, it goes without saying. One is not Wiccan because it's their Soul's intrinsic nature – they are Wiccan because in this particular lifetime, or in this specific time of their life, their Soul needs them to be Wiccan in order to grow and experience.

Why did the above statement disturb me so much?

Because I am an initiate of the Correllian Tradition, and the person who wrote this statement is one of its co-heads, Lady Krystel Highcorrell. Due to her position within the Tradition, she represents the Tradition and its values... And she writes (and thus, most likely upholds) something like this.

I'm not done yet.

Same lesson (#48), still written by Lady Krystel:

"Because of the work you have done in these lessons, you are a Wiccan now."

Wait a minute.

A Wiccan NOW? Because one has done the work in the lessons??

I thought she said one was born a Wiccan, not made?!? If that was true, wouldn't one be Wiccan even BEFORE taking Lesson #1? Was one less of a Wiccan during Lesson#1 than during Lesson#48? Why is the student told he is a student *because* he's finished the lessons and done the work?

On one page, one is born a Wiccan, not made – on the other, one becomes Wiccan through work, thus “made”... Here's a nice contradiction! Which statement is true, then?

Let me quote a blogger (with his kind permisson) from another forum – he presents my view wonderfully:

People are not born on the path. They choose to walk it. No matter how many people in your family are/were practicing, no matter how much you might have been taught by them... Unless you identify as a follower of whatever path you are talking about and actually walk it, you are not in it.
-- Alorer the Greek (Stef)

I don't think I could make my point clearer than Alorer did.

To finish, I would appreciate (one can dream, right?) if someone of authority in the Tradition cleared that up for me. With a serious and precise answer – avoiding the politically correct bullcrap, and the side-step-and-dance replies that some favor.

This is important – as these are values put forth by a leader of the Tradition, thus reflecting what the Tradition holds true.

Brightest Blessings,

Rev. Elise

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Permalink Reply by mara rising-phoenix on August 14, 2010 at 12:47pm

You do have a point sister!!! Glad that you made that point and that you stick up for what you deem is right and good. Standing up to inconsistencies and what not. I am proud to have you as a friend on here. Have a wonderful day and keep fighting the good fight. I hope that you hear something back on this. It most def. needs to be fixed if that is what it says. I loved how you wrote this and spoke clearly and without flourish! Way to go girl!! Bright Blessings!!!!!! :)

Permalink Reply by Michael on August 14, 2010 at 12:48pm

"I believe" is a statement of opinion and everyone has a right to theirs. This author states it as an opinion so I see no issue with it. Now if it was stated as a fact that would be different.

Also I disagree with your whole "born into" argument. Everyone is born into something. Just become one you can choose something different doesn't mean that what your parents teach you isn't what you are born into.

When your born your parents decide what religion you are. You follow that until you have the capacity to choose. That doesn't mean that you were not that religion for the first part of your life. You lived it, to learned it you were it.

If you were born into a small fishing village in some forgotten part of a country you would be born a fisherman weather you change that later in life has no baring on your past. You will always have your past. A religion is no difference then a way of life you can be born into ether. Doesn't mean you will like it or keep with it but you were born into that.

Also my interpretation of “probably have been Wiccan in many, if not all, of your past lives." is still an authors opinion. Its mine that they are referring not to Wicca as Gardner states it but the way of life thus meaning almost any Panentheism/Pantheism /Polytheism religion. Religion was around long before Gardner. He may have made it more apparent to the masses but he didn't create it. Some form of nature religion has been around sense the time when man first saw things that they couldn't explain.

So relax man, everyone has an opinion. No reason to let it stress you. That's the great thing about opinions everyone has one and you don't have to share theirs.

Its always good to question stuff if it doesn't make sense. I never considered that those words could be taken the way you took them. Ill have to re-read those chapters with your view point in mind. Might make it an interesting read.

Hope we hear from the author as well. Always good to see what they meant to say.

Permalink Reply by Megan L Herrod on August 14, 2010 at 1:24pm

Although everyone has an opinion, the statement within this class is take with much more trust than the opinions of "Joe blow wiccan"....

I think the whole statement SHOULD be re-edited so it is more accurate and all encompassing.

One cannot be born as a follower of a belief system. No 3 month old understands or "knows" jesus, the goddess or god, buddha, shiva, etc... At least not in thier concious mind.

I say my daughter is wiccan, sure. I am her mom, I am raising her as a wiccan, and that will be the spirituality she is MOST accustomed to. However, she is not a REAL wiccan, in the wholest sense of the word, until she is old enough to understand thouroughly what we believe in, and makes the descision, on her own, to accept or reject this path.

In the catholic church, that act is formalized when a child becomes "Confirmed" within the church. In a way, bar mitzvas do the same thing (if it marks that passage into adulthood, then naturally- that is the point at which you are capable of choosing your faith) - In wicca, dedications are a similar basis...

SO religions around the world recognize that at some point, you have to choose your religion for yourself, or else it is just "following the croud". In some cultures it is mandatory, or pretty darn close (I don't many people in Iran choose "not islam", but who knows).

The point is, that religion is a choice. Babies can be baptized, or wiccaned, or whatever by their parents, but that is the act of US laying protection over them with the faith in OUR own gods... It is not until you are an adult, or at least a teenager, that you have enough self-identity and critical thinking ability to choose or accept any faith.

I was RAISED catholic, and yes, it is an unchanging part of ME... however I am a Wiccan, I was never TRULY a catholic, because I was not capable to make that decision as a child, and when i was GIVEN the choice, I rejected it.

The author may have meant "Panentheism/Pantheism /Polytheism religion" when they said "Wicca", but as a head of the tradition, a mistake like that is not so easily looked over... Even so, there is probably a low likelihood that we were all simply witches in many or all of our past lives. I feel more "multi-dimensional" than that.

The problem with the statements, more than anything, is not WHAT is said, but WHO said it and the fact that the hold such sway in their position. They represent the whole of the tradition! As far as who or what we were in past lives, nobody knows with ALL certainty exactly each person or animal or whatnot they were incarnated as... It may be opinion, and if you were incarnated only a few times, and you are a "new soul" maybe you were wiccan all of your lives... as long as they are post 1930... so far as we know.

I am up in the air about the age of wicca... Not wicca as WE know it, but the word wicca, and the *possibility* of folk-witchcraft type witches lasting through the middle ages and the renaissance... Did they have a faith like ares? Were they Christians? Did they even exist?

No one knows,and if there are people who do, NONE as come forward with SUFFICIENT evidence to prove it. I would not be suprised if a pantheist religion did survive, if fragmented... but yet again, that is speculation rather than fact. When we state an opinion as fact, without evidence, we tread dangerous waters. Especially when we represent a lot more than just ourselves.

Blessed Be to you all!
_Megan

Permalink Reply by Michael on August 14, 2010 at 1:50pm

At 3 no you cannot know much of anything but you don't see many three year old switching faiths for that reason. Ask a child what they are and they will tell you. Just because they are young doesn't mean that what they say has any less meaning.

There are several cultures where religion is not an option. That is what you are and if you have a problem with that the punishments are severe.

Her position, to me, holds no meaning over her opinion. If she said that this is the traditions belief that's another thing. Everyone has a right to differ. Just because your in the upper echelon of a religion doesn't mean you cant have a slightly different opinion then someone else in that group. You cannot honestly tell me you believe the exactly same thing as everyone else in the tradition with no deviation.

Her opinion was stated as an opinion. It it was stated as a fact it would be incorrect. That's the only real problem with writing, much is up to the readers interpretation. It may be a poorly worded opinion but at least it caused a great discussion of different interpretation of the written word.

Permalink Reply by Michael on August 14, 2010 at 2:09pm

Hmm cut off the bottom of this.

I agree thought that people in a position of authority must be very clear when their opinions different from the teaching of their faith

They need to make it very clear that their opinion might not be shared by the rest of their faith.
I can see how someone may mistake that statement for the traditions instead of the authors personal statement. That could cause some confusion.

Permalink Reply by mara rising-phoenix on August 14, 2010 at 4:13pm

I am also a recovering Catholic. :) I love reading your responses. :) *Mara

Permalink Reply by MoonJoy on August 14, 2010 at 1:41pm

Michael -- just a note: The "I believe" is present ONLY IN THE LESSON. In the published book that stemmed off these lessons, the "I believe that" has been removed.(it's on page 238) In the book, then, it's even worse: it's presented as a fact, not as an opinion...

And yes, the book is credited to the person who reviewed Krystel's lessons, Debbe Tompkins (she's a Correllian priestess as well), and Krystel only gets mentionned. Her name is not on the cover. I'm not sure it's fair to her, as she worked hard to write these lessons.

I'm not sure we'll hear from Lady Krystel... She's ill and has retired from activity, I think. Still, there is Rev. Don... Or other Elders...

Megan -- you put the finger right on it :)

Permalink Reply by Michael on August 14, 2010 at 2:03pm

That needs to be corrected for sure. I don't own a copy of the book so I'll take your word on that. They should make an errata or fix that in the run. It shouldn't be too hard with the computer tech they use to print.

The book is really wrong then. That could never be a proven fact and would be aken to the scientist
saying the earth was flat in the past. Just simply wrong.

The fact lady crystal didn't get credit i don't think is right. That took her a very long time to make that class. She should have at least gotten a good mentioning.

I'm sorry to hear that she is sick. I hope she gets better.

Thanks for the great debate on different viewpoints about religion. As always it was fun and gave me lots of new things to think over.

Permalink Reply by MaryAnn on August 14, 2010 at 2:11pm

I wouldn't presume to speak for Lady Krystel so I can only tell you what I think she meant. Just reading the title of the course should give you a clue. Living the Wiccan Life. I think that Lady Krystel uses the word Wiccan to refer to a lifestyle, the same as you would call yourself a Kitchen Witch, or a Wise Woman.

The entire course is about daily living and how she conducts herself. There are so many different definitions of Wicca now that it is becoming a topic of controversy, even at the Parliament of World Religions.

So trying to define Wiccan is like trying to define any other belief system. There are so many different types of practicing Wiccans that there really isn't one definiton. In my opinion, Wiccan itself is nearly always an eclectic group of beliefs.

And if you believe in reincarnation, and many people who live the Wiccan life do, then you can certainly be born into a way of life or belief system if you choose to.

I will bring this discussion to Rev. Don's attention. He might be able to add something as well. Thanks for a lively topic.

Permalink Reply by Crescent (Rev) on August 14, 2010 at 3:32pm

Thank you, MaryAnn, because I'm only on lesson 28. I hope that there's a correction online before I get to lesson 48.

Crescent

Permalink Reply by Laramie Roush on August 14, 2010 at 8:07pm

If I understand correctly, several of the elders of the Correllian Nativist Tradition were very reluctant to accept the "Wicca" moniker because they felt it was a bit misleading. Please correct me if I am wrong about that.

Several points:

1. I had a lot of experiences early in life which made it apparent to me that there was something that modern religious traditions were missing. I have a very diverse history with religions, and I have come to see paganism as a uniting force in my life. To come to Wicca was a choice for me, not something which I came into by birth.

2. While I respect the authority of my elders, it needs to be known that a large part of the Correllian Nativist Tradition is said to come from the ancient Cherokee traditions. Now that is something I know about! Here is some of what the ancient traditions of the Cherokee have in common with those of Europe: Color associations and the cardinal directions. The little people (Yv-wi Usdi) are essentially the same as the Faeries of Old Europe. Spell casting was practiced by my people for thousands of years with no persecution at all until the arrival of Christianity. Crystals were used for empowerment and divination, as were beads placed into bowls of water. Circles were cast, closed by dancing three times (but always counter-clockwise, "widdershins") around a sacred fire. Did my ancestors think of this in terms that we use today? No, they couldn't have. What they had was a human religion which seems to be common to all indigenous shamanistic cultures. So, my second point is that the term "Wicca" is simply a new word that we are using to define old practices. I do not need to wonder about whether or not it was practiced through the "middle ages", because I know that it was . . . at least by my people.

3. Before the late 17th century there were a group of Cherokee priests who had achieved absolute power over the people of the nation. Human sacrifice, slavery, and the abduction of virgins for sexual rituals were the signs of corruption that had arisen from this hierarchical priesthood. The Aniyvwiya (the name the Cherokee hold for themselves meaning "real human beings") revolted against these priests and destroyed everything that had to do with the priesthood, sparing some of the priests to retain the core of our old religion. My third point is, with all due respect to the High Correll family, that power should never be kept within, or handed down solely through family members.

4. Quote: "Because of the work you have done in these lessons, you are a Wiccan now."
Quote: " . . . Wiccans are born, not made. If this is the path of heart for you, you were born a Wiccan, and
probably have been Wiccan in many if not all of your past lives."
It is inconsistencies such as this which alerted me to the fact that the Christian Bible could not be "inerrant". While I know very little about Lady Krystel, and I am sure that she is very well trained, this needs to be corrected. That is point four. Whether her position was inherited or earned doesn't matter

5. As noted above, while Cherokees use color associations in the old practice, those colors are somewhat different. So are the elements associated with each direction. So are the nature of the various deities, the Sun being feminine and the Moon being masculine (Very beautiful myths surround this belief). In lesson 2 of the 1st degree course, I was made familiar with the creation myth of the "Vangello De Streghe" (may have that spelled wrong). I see no mention so far of the Cherokee creation myths which are every bit as metaphorically true and valuable. This means I must turn my personal way of looking at things to join in the Correllian Tradition. I'm OK with that, but it seems that Correllian "Wicca" has been breaking with many of the traditions it originally held sacred in favor of what I have heard called . . .( wink, wink) . . . Pop-Wicca. Point five is that the statements in question sound more like something I would expect to hear from Harry Potter wannabes than what I would want to hear from a respected Correllian Nativist elder.

I wholeheartedly agree with your post, though as you know, I am new (less than a year) to Correllian beliefs. I am nowhere near to your level of study, and its your hard work I respect . . . And in my opinion, that is what makes you a true "Wiccan": dedication, and devotion to what you believe in.

No, we are not "born" Wiccan. I "believe" that idea to be dangerous.

BB
Larry

Permalink Reply by MoonJoy on August 14, 2010 at 8:57pm

*hugs Larry tight until he changes color*

... well, maybe I won't wait until you change color... *wink*

Elise ;)