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I've been pondering the Nature of Divinity, and the idea of Monotheism. As used by Christians, I think the idea of 'One God' is nonsense. Paganism had the concept of Triple Godesses and Gods quite firmly entrenched at the time of the rise of Christianity, and I suspect that the concept of the 'Trinity' was adopted directly from Paganism.
Christianity claims to worship one God, who mystically is at the same time three individual Gods, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Where is this different from the Goddess, in Her aspects as Maiden, Mother, and Crone, or the God, as Son, Sire, and Sage??
I see this as yet another commonality of Christianity and a number of different forms of Paganism. Does anyone else suspect that Formal Sectarian Christianity may yet topple of it's own dogmatism?
Permalink Reply by Rachael Sue Rubin on most definitely.
I think Christianity causes great confusion and mental illness. This is just my opinion--no more no less.
Here is a nice little poem in the back of to light a sacred flame.
As the old order dies and the raven takes the skies
And you feel no longer threatened by the death of the Israelites
As the Mother holds us to Her breast and magick is on the rise
Those who have the eyes to see recognize the Coven grows.
Through the witch hunts and the inquisition the spark was kept alive
Through the long night burning bright yet hidden from hostile eyes
They stood against the darkness waiting for the Eastern glow
Now we stand revealed in the morning light and we know
The Coven Grows.
And it's growing.
Well the wind carries the melody and the earth joins in the song
And the moon the stars the oceans can try to sing along
And the universe it vibrates in the power that it stores
And those who have the heart to feel it simply can't ignore: us
as we grow, and grow.
The wheel it has been turning and the old fires they are burning
And what was once diminished now it is returning
The ancient power advances all The earth in her spiral dances
She sings with a newfound light that she sows
And we in harmony with her we know
The coven grows.
And it's growing.
Do you feel the Mother's presence as the Nazarine cult dies?
Fresh and new like the light that flew from between the Mother's shes
Do you see the magick glisten in birthwaters of our eyes?
Do you have the ears to listen and will you recognize us as we grow?
As the old order dies and the raven takes the slues
And you fee1 no longer threatened by the death of the Israelites
As the Mother holds us to Her breast and magick is on the rise
Those who have the eyes to see recognize the Coven grows.
Permalink Reply by Phoenix Rising on Thanks!! I like the imagery of this poem!!
I think the book religions borrow from paganism first and foremost to get converts. After that it is about having power over your fellow human in the name of religion. Power is more important to them than truth.
Permalink Reply by Phoenix Rising on I agree, Michael~ that's why I'm not enthused about the idea of Wicca becoming too organized and dogmatic. Any time a religion organizes and sets forth doctrine in books, it becomes a force for control of it's adherents. There will always be people who wish for power over others, for their own reasons. the saddest part is that there will always be people to follow them and allow control of themselves, because of their own lack of self worth and self confidence. I think the worst part of organized Christianity is the doctrine of the total unworthiness of humanity, and the need for Divine Salvation through blind following of the words of others, whether in books or verbally.
You said it so much better than I tried to.
Permalink Reply by Drakill Tannan on I'm sorry phoenix, but you just don't know what you're talking about this time. The triple goddess represents the ages of a human and how we proyect upon the diety, same with the god, but they are nothing alike the christian triniy.
The reason there is a trinity is because the religions, christinaity included, are escencially pantheism at their root, and the universe sustains itself on 3 pillars. Why three? Because one is the action (active), the other is the reacion (passive), and the other is what is generated from the clash of this two forces. It is because in order for something to exist you must have that something (1), something that can percive that something (2), and an idea that makes the former a single one (3). It also represents the god father (The absolute, The ALL), the son (The supreme being, the manifestation of the god father) and the holy spirit (The femenine aspect necesary for creation).
That's just over the top of my head. I can do some reaserch if you wish, but it is not related at all.
You guys need to give a lot more credit to christianity and judaism. The popular watered-down version fed to the masses is indeed almost worthless, but if you were to observe the symbolism and occult & mystic meaning of it in every representation, metaphor and holy book, it's asociation with astrology, numerology, cosmo-biology, etc, you'd be just shocked. Occult christianity spoke of concepts we now observe in quantum physics at the very least decades ago (alegedly hundreds of even thousands of years ago, on its predecesors), directly postulating things such as "Space is substace" in a direct fashon wich only reciently we've discovered to be true. Religions such as Judaism spoke of DNA and how to manipulate it using specific mantras and words (The 72 names of god, for instance), it spoke of the spin of the orbitals of atoms, it spoke of things so complex and "advanced" they leave your jaw dropped when you realize it.
Really... one does simply say the thousand-year-old religions are trash. You just haven't dug on them enough to realize its value. It's damn deep, damn impresive, and damn true.
Permalink Reply by Drakill Tannan on In fact, something similar happens with the concepts christianity "Stole" from paganism. I too used to think this was the case with, for example, the cross, or christmass, but after some research it turns out it isn't. It's more like both pagans and christians took the cross from the same place: the observance of nature.
The cross almost universally represents the 4 elements, the christian cross is no diferent. The sacrifice of Odin in the cross, or the sacrifice of Apollo or Dionisius, or Aquenaton is not the same story as the christ's crusificion, nor the other way arround. In truth, what happens is that the symnbology that it carries is extremly important. From what i can gather, jesus did in real life what the gods metaphorically did in order to help people. Odin wasn't really crusified because odin is not flesh and bone. Energetically speaking, Odin did the equivalence in whatever plane he exists to the crusifiction more likely. What jesus did was very significative: by carrying the cross he established dominance over the 4 elements (I can carry them all, i can carry the world, i can conquier the world), his crusifiction and death represents the sacrifice of what is carnal, fleshy and terrenal for a spiritual purpose. His descent to hell, much like Freya's represents the path of spiritual involution necesary to achive enlightment, and for sacrificing what is physical and descending into hell to learn, he became enligthened and arose from the death up to the heavens. It is metaphorical for sure, but apparently it is also real, and was done in order to change the energy of the earth in such way we'd have it easier to progress in our lives.
Same goes with christmas, easter, whatever. It's just a new name for the solstices. It's not that they were stolen, but they HAD to be celebrated because their importance is undeniable.
Of cource few ever learn of this. Mostly it's masons, gnostics and rosicrucians from what i gather, because the church leaders don't want people to understand this things... for some reason i won't speculate about. That's why christians often are cluless about how wonderfull their religion is, and their ignorance is passed down as "wisdom", and we end up thinking christianity is trash, when it's actually one of the most wonderfull religions alive.
Permalink Reply by Rob M on not to nit pick too much Drakill but if you leave the Christian records and look at the Roman ones forcing the prisoner to carry the cross he was going to be crucified on through the streets was actually quite common. So I'm not sure about that signifying his dominance over the 4 elements. Forcing the convicted to carry their cross through the streets was often used by the Romans to punish those they wanted to humiliate before they killed them, this would include rapists, murderers and escaped prisoners. This was to show the people that Roman Law was absolute and could not be escaped.
BB
Rob
Permalink Reply by Phoenix Rising on I don't have any real argument with you if you are talking about the 'Occult Christianity' you seem to be, Drakill. However, that was NOT what I was speaking of - I was speaking of the Christianity devised by and for the benefit of Rome's control of their Empire, which is the most common type, and which I specified in my intro question.
Apparently your understanding of the Trinity in Christianity is different from what I was taught and from what the recognized denominations of Christianity teach. I presume that would be based on your view of Christianity and Judaism solely from the point of the mystics within those religions. As a matter of fact, I have a great deal of respect for the mystics of every religion, as they are the true 'Seekers'. I don't call them Christian or Jewish, however, as they have transcended the limitations of the doctrines and dogmas of those Faiths. We who Walk the Worlds see everything within the imageries which are most comfortable to us, whether Christian, Asatru, Buddhist or any other Faithway.
I find your explanation of the 'three pillars' interesting. I hadn't seen that variation of it. In my practice, I use two pillars - the oppositions, and I myself must resolve their Balance before I can pass them~
As far as your 'crucifixion' examples, I won't debate them with you, as I don't use that system of imagery.
If it works for you, by all means use it - everyone has their own personal systems. I'm certainly not going to say anything you've said is 'wrong', just because I don't agree with it. (I try to confine THAT to people who are using direct quotes and misinterpreting them egregiously - LOL!)
Permalink Reply by Rob M on I wasn't exactly trying to say he was wrong phoenix, just pointing out that Jesus wasn't the first or the last to do be forced to drag their own cross through the streets. Sorry Drakill if it seemed that way!! it wasn't my intention to say you were wrong or start an argument. I was just pointing out something that I saw from a historical point of view. If I was trying to point out out Drakill was wrong or start an argument about that particular part I would have brought up that at one point someone else had to bear Jesus' burden of carrying the cross. Which was not my intention at all.
Permalink Reply by Phoenix Rising on I'm sorry you misunderstood my post, Rob. My focus wasn't you, it was Drakill~~ I didn't mean by it that anyone here had said anything 'wrong', Rob. Again, sorry you may have thought I meant you~~
Permalink Reply by Drakill Tannan on No worries. THe input of others is enrichening.
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