Plain and simple, I'm going to line up a few claims, and do my best to knock them down. I may have to edit this from time to time, to add or take away as I must as my thoughts become more clear and focused. I wish I'd written this down the day it all seemingly "downloaded" into my brain, but I didn't. Here we go...
1. Everyone knows the Bible has stolen stories, nothing is original!
Very well. So... What you are telling me is that you, as a Pagan, or Pagans in general, have never borrowed anything from another source? Or how about this, that because these stories all stemmed from the same place, that they might actually be expected to be similar? If you want to talk about how the flood was a stolen account, well just how many Pagan civilizations have this? Now hold on a second, that would mean you stole it too. And the tower of Babel? Is it not somewhere in Native American (or perhaps Indian) lore that they piled rocks incredibly high to reach the heavens, and suffered the same fate? Now still, that's quite an interesting concept. Bearing that in mind, with all of these similar stories, it makes one wonder... Now as far as the divinity of Jesus (Yeshua), and his disciples and the rest of the New Testament, that is up to you to believe. Whether you believe it was based upon surrounding myths such as Egyptian lore or even Mithraism is upon you.
2. Christianity is a book religion! We would never be like that!
Oh really? Tell me why again a Book of Shadows for every coven or individual is different? Christians didn't always have a Bible to go off of. In fact, St. Patrick, the Briton didn't even have one when speaking to those in Ireland. Sure, they had the epistles floating around the area, copied here and there, but they weren't en masse nor yet assembled together with other writings to form the Bible with the older Hebrew texts.
How many here have first learned of Paganism through a written document, whether online or offline? How many times have you found yourselves saying "Silver Ravenwolf says..." or "Raymond Buckland suggests..." Does this not suggest you too learned your craft from a book, or series of books? How many Pagans still clamor over Margaret Murray's claims of that "one Pagan faith" across mainland Europe, and the surviving underground witch cult? It's proven to be false, but because it supports what some Pagans choose to believe, no matter how naive, they continue to support and sport it.
3. Christians operate on blind faith, their God doesn't exist, neither does Satan.
Uh huh... In my last statement I mentioned the continued belief of things proved untrue. Now this one makes me laugh a good deal. Sure, it's not a prevalent claim, at least not towards the Judaeo-Christian god as much, but towards Satan it is. Let's examine Satan for a minute. A wily god of darkness and sin, which by nature is what turns one away from God, etc., etc., etc. How many dark deities throughout history have Pagans had that could size up to that figure? More than a handful I am guessing. Not always portrayed as "evil" but dark most certainly. Of course, fluffy bunnies today won't accept that any Pagan god could ever have been considered "evil" right?
"Satan doesn't exist!" Well why can't he? You cast a ritual as a coven by putting energy and belief into something to manifest it, yes? Now imagine how powerful the belief in Satan is across the world, and imagine that that force now has some serious power to work with? The magus knows s/he creates their own reality, so as Pagans, you may want to second guess yourselves as to whether or not a force could exist that does lead evil or malignant spirits. Look at Vodun/Santeria. Do they not try to warn about and keep away evil spirits? Some faiths put more attention on the warding of negative energy than others, but some Pagans tend to write away negative anything as a possibility at all!
4. Christians are just full of hate and only like to judge people!
Now this one is tricky. We can agree there are some sects that are a bit more... enthusiastic about their way of life, and how exactly one should live. Just as well how to "save" someone. But on the opposite end of the spectrum, I've seen Christians that have behaved much more nicely and politely than some Pagans I've met. Overall have also had better senses of character, and did well to pay back their debts, or help others when they could. I've also met Pagans like this too. My boss and our CEO here, Ed, is just like that. And as far as judging goes, how many of you haven't walked down the street or driven somewhere and looked at someone and then turned to a friend and said "Look at that person, I bet etc., etc., etc." We're all guilty of it. We're all guilty of a lot of things, and none are without excuse.
Spiritual warfare? Sure! But I'm not talking angels and demons here. Pagans get pretty geared up against Christians in some cases, and it's mutual. However, if we keep this unchecked, we may find ourselves in the middle of a "holy war" here in America. We're all ready seeing a great spread of violence the world over, and what's odd is more destruction in the world than has ever been reported. Hurricanes are a dime a dozen, and great forest fires are wiping away years of work in a matter of days. With all of these things going on, you think we would all have something better to talk about, or to take action against. It doesn't seem to be the case though.
5. Christians destroyed the "Old Religion" and killed nine million witches!
Okay, I phrased this last point for a reason. One, no "single" form of an "Old Religion" existed across Europe at the time Christianity began nor really took rise. No underground "Witch Cult" has necessarily been proven to exist, and if you would please, let us not make a conspiracy of it. Margaret Murray's claims and research were debunked. For some reason however, there are Pagans yet still that will hold to these ideas. It's time to let them go. And as far as "nine million" figures being killed? I believe that too can be historically debated.
What you may not want to bear in mind is the amount of Christians that were put to death, at the hands of yes, Christians. There was not always the power of the Pope. There were several popes once, and there was a battle of sovereignty between them. I also like to remind others of Joan of Arc, a controversial figure in my book. She speaks to God, leads an army to great victory, and later is labeled a heretic and put to death. Ed informed me that she wanted to be clergy. Of that I was unaware, but if true, I could see that the people would wish her to be. I could see that at least.
End commentary: Okay, that's enough from me for now. I'm hungry and have other things to do. I've got movies to watch and books to read. Thanks to any of you that read this and get what I'm trying to say. For any offended, I can not apologize for speaking what I see as the truth. And chances are, is that if you are offended, there must be some certain level of truth to it all. In the end, I leave you with a great video I suggest you watch, and look up the lyrics to. It's called American Babylon by Saviour Machine.
I am a Pagan but I am also a Catholic/Christian to please my crazy church obssessed Bible thumping mother who thinks that God is the be all end all of everything an that Church and God can fix me.
Hi Herr Wulf and friends,
Did you do a disappearing act or are you just really busy because, I haven't seen you around here much? Anyway, you are missed.
This group has been on my mind for some reason lately so I thought I would come check in.
Funny how this is the first conversation that I stumbled upon this morning as well.
Great post and maybe spirit was trying to tell me something leading me here because, this conversation has helped my understanding of what I already knew since I've been feeling somewhat persecuted myself lately (long insignificant story).
Sometimes we older folks just need reminders.
I too have faced scrutiny from both sides and I too will let them remain nameless so, I know how you feel there but, I'd like if I may, point out a common ground though to those of us who do that I've noticed from my own observations.
I ask if anyone can say this applies to them who have felt such persecution for lack of a better word this early a.m.
1. Is a loner who for whatever reason, and usually by no fault of their own, has had to face difficult decisions of life on their own, usually from having to stand their ground at a very young age be it through lack of family or a support system of some sort. They are their own support system from having to survive and thrive on their own.
2. So therefore, don't have a go with the flow or follow the leader mind set that agrees with everything and everyone around them and cannot understand those who do. They have an oppinion and aren't afraid to voice it, even if it's controversial.
3. Would rather feel alone standing for what they believe, than to follow along with what they don't just to belong.
Whether that's good or bad, and I tend to believe it's good, it sets them apart for scrutiny.
4. Those who face the biggist scrutiny are usually those who have been burned the most somehow and most likely from those pointing the finger the most. Usually because those pointing the finger has done something or have something to hide themselves that they don't want others to know about.LOL!
I'm just saying that maybe those who are doing the persecuting, christian and pagan alike, have other agendas for getting others to rally behind them and creating a stir against one who has no defense other than their own convictions, being seen then as easy prey.
For instance how much did the church benefit from the land claimed by those they murdered for witchcraft?
I agree with Autumn Lilith's post, particularly that people pass judgment on others because they fear the reflection they see of themselves and that most people who judge people with other views aren't for the most part true to their own faith.
And Lynda's post that in the end, it will all amount to who you were as a person, which is truly the only thing that you can take with you when you die.
Comment by Autumn Lilith on September 2, 2009 at 11:53am
The world is full of ignorance and those who wish to remain ignorant. People pass judgment on others because they fear the reflection they see of themselves in others. The truth is no one knows for sure until they die and that could be a scary thing.
Most people who judge people with other views aren't for the most part true to their faith anyway and usually those are the kind of people that get judged. I have only met one Pagan that wouldn't befriend a Christian and that Christian, at the time, was me. My Pagan friends didn't stand for it and told the man to chill or leave.
I haven't met any other Pagan that didn't appreciate a person who whole heartedly believes something. I know they must exist. The ones I know wouldn't stand for it. I will admit jokes fly, but that is exactly what they are. We all feel judged in every aspect of life, we all feel treated unfairly. It is human to deal with it in a inhumane way. Not that it is right.
Comment by Lynda Wilkins on September 1, 2009 at 1:28pm
I agree totally with everything you said. In a nut shell, there are crappy people everywhere. They aren't restricted to one sect or practice. I myself am a solitary practitioner and has been looked down upon by other pagans because I refused to join their coven. At any rate, my point is there are all different types of people in the world that classify themselves as belonging to different groups. In the end I think it will all amount to who you were as a person, not what you did during your lifetime to tr y to "bribe" the higher beings into giving you a wonderful ever after. As for Pagans who do Christian Bashing, being pagans means that you are able to freely accept others and not judge them by what they believe, as you would prefer they not do to you. If one can not accept someone for what they choose to believe, then how can that one person accept him/herself?
Comment by Tony Jenkins on August 31, 2009 at 9:16pm
I'm aware of Pagans attacking Pagans. I've undergone some scrutiny myself, even here within the system believe it or not. But I'm going to let them remain nameless. What I have done is opened the doors for others to come forth and be open, while I took the heat for it so they wouldn't have to. Thankfully things have calmed down, and now the groups are thriving.
What I am most trying to do is bring some understanding to all sides of religion, while putting to rest some of the great problems within our own community. As we head towards Pagan Universalism, we need to look at what we have in common, and the underlying truths to all things rather than keep bringing up the past and our differences.
Pagans act as if all Christians were responsible for the wiping out of the older, native religions. They're quick to forget that many Christians were put to death at the hands of their own brethren. Religion then was what many governments are today. It existed as a way to keep the people complacent, unite many under one banner, and to assume as much political control as possible.
If anything, maybe my statements will appear as moderately controversial and open some eyes, which is what I'm really hoping for here, honestly.
Thank you for posting this...too many pagans point the finger at others for persecuting them, but don't hesitate to do so to others. There are open minded and close minded people on both sides of the fence, but I've met some really awesome Christians who are secure enough in their beliefs to not feel threatened by mine, and, hey, there are pagans who are prejudiced against other pagans ("fluffy bunnies" not getting those who practice nocturnal witchcraft, or psy vampirism...)
Comment by Karena Alyce Boncal on August 30, 2010 at 11:19am 
Comment by Betty Redding on March 4, 2010 at 5:25am 
Comment by Autumn Lilith on September 2, 2009 at 11:53am 
Comment by Lynda Wilkins on September 1, 2009 at 1:28pm 
Comment by Tony Jenkins on August 31, 2009 at 9:16pm 
Comment by Faithless Angel on August 31, 2009 at 5:55pm 
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